A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

topic posted Sun, January 6, 2008 - 3:45 PM by  ananth
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To err is human, to admit is divine...

This is hard to talk about, but here it is. A few years ago, a very lovely Californian blonde in her early 40s requested me to coach her on the esoteric mysteries of kundalini, its arousal, and awakening. She wanted me to help her unleash the energy through the classical tantric ways using a variety of sensual and sexual methods. She was married, and so I felt it would be highly inappropriate for me to use the sexual approach to kundalini movement. So, I declined.

She was very persuasive, very intent, and gosh darn it, very attractive. So I finally agreed to awaken all the energy latent in her, but through the most secret of all of tantric methods, one that is usually never talked about, written about, and whose use is not looked at kindly by the Goddess - yes, Sarpa Tantra - the path of the serpent. This is the non-sexual (no intercourse) tantric approach that arises awakens and moves the kundalini wherever you want in less than 5 minutes - the time it takes to get a non-fat, single shot, decaf latte at Starbucks. The method is conceptually extremely simple - the awakener (me), embodies, models, and personifies the kundalini energy of the awakened one (her), and systematically moves through each chakra physically. As I act the part of the serpent, breathing, hissing, coiling, and striking each chakra forcefully, her energy also gets the cue and moves, and soon her body starts to shake under the assault of my modeling the serpentine kundalini, and her own kundalini rising to mimic me. It is extremely fast, extremely powerful, and extremely dangerous to directly awaken the energy.

Needless to say, I took the kundalini all the way beyond the Ajna chakra between the eyebrows and into her head. She was shuddering and said the experience was more incredible than any sex she had ever had, and it put her in a state of mind she had never been before. I felt good, and I told her that I had unleashed her great psychic energy, and it was her responsibility to take the energy safely and do good and wonders to this world. I asked her to meditate, and then left the place.

What I had not realized was that I had put great power in her hands when she was ill equipped to handle the energy, channel it in peaceful ways, and transform the great power into happiness for others. She had all the intent, but had no practice or knowhow to do any of it. The consequences were very painful as I later found out. Her sexual appetite had grown a thousand fold causing her to create deep fissures in her marriage, and her focus in her professional life had suffered. Her health, especially her digestion and stomach were totally shot, and she was in an extremely precarious condition. Her marriage was on the rocks, and she was on the verge of a total breakdown.

When I finally met her, she squarely blamed her condition, mental, physical, emotional, familial, and sexual all on me. She said 'Ananth, it is all your fault. Even if I had begged you to release my kundalini, you should not have, especially in the most direct approach you used. What happened to your sense of responsibility? Why did not suggest some gentle incremental approach, but used an approach that even the books ban?"

I agreed with her. It was my fault. I had not gauged where she was in a spiritual sense, and in my eagerness to show her the extent of her own energy, and in a desire to perhaps impress her with my ability to awaken and move her kundalini in an instant, I had erred in a very serious way. Despite my belief in my own evolution, it was obvious that when an attractive woman asked me to move her energy far beyond where it should have gone, I succumbed to my male desire to impress her, and just picked up her kundalini and just tossed it around. It ended up causing her great havoc, and her family great trouble.

So I became more convinced that the tools I know, love, and use, were just not the right ones for most of this world. I also felt poorly that despite my own strength and sense of integrity, a beautiful woman had just made to do things that as a teacher I would have frowned upon. Sarpa Tantra will probably die with me, similar to how the five point palm exploding heart technique dies with Pai Mei in Kill Bill 2. The world is better off without people using tools of tantra to cause mental and sexual havoc in othes. Being generous, kind, and loving to all can take one to everyplace we need to go, and we can dispense with the tantric mumbo jumbo entirely.

I kept this to myself, and became very reluctant to teach anybody, but I thought that this is an important experience in my life that perhaps has lessons for some. So I decided to share. Flame me if you want, blame me if you want. I think I deserve all of it.

- Ananth Tantri
posted by:
ananth
SF Bay Area
  • Unsu...
     
    While you are the one relaying the experience, where is the ackowledgment of her culpability, her responsibility for her own desires and actions...

    So you're taking responsiblity for everything and seemingly feeling guilty about it.

    I think this is a lopsided perception

    ?

    :)

    ~V~
  • Sounds to me like your ego took over and in ONE case, as a result, you believe you screwed up. Then, you somehow came to the wild conclusion that because your ego got the best of you in ONE SITUATION, "...the tools I know, love, and use, were just not the right ones for most of this world."

    That's like saying if you saw someone slip off the bottom rung of a latter and get hurt, you should remove the bottom rungs of all ladders. Sorry, Ananth, but your transition from the specific to the general is irrational and illogical. It would take quite a bit of egotism to make that jump.

    Sounds like your ego is still soaring.

    Namaste!
    • I shared my experience so others could benefit from not handling with care that which should be handled with care.

      Discussion of my ego was not quite my intent though discussing my "ego" seems to be a particular fascination of yours.

      Surrounded by cheap manuscripts, and a thousand reprints of texts, you pontificate my friend, devoid of any real physical experience. I doubt if you ever experienced anything profound other than holding the crisp copy of a photocopied manuscript so you could pontificate some more.

      Given your obvious propensity to appear erudite, try translating this for a change "Gunamennum kundreri nindrar veguli ganameyum kathal aridhu". And if and when you figure it out, perhaps you should heed it.

      - Ananth Tantri
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

        Sun, January 6, 2008 - 10:42 PM
        You shared this to say you are powerful. The rest is insignificant to you, as this was your aim. If you ever care to show your power to a real sadhak, as opposed to big titted blonds then let me know. Tell the truth, and be careful. Translate, "brother in-law"]

        Mazu
        Mahakala Bhairava Aghori
        • Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

          Mon, January 7, 2008 - 12:18 AM
          Tantra is not a contest, but a journey.

          There is no power to be shown. The most awesome power is nature, and we are part of it.

          I have no desire to demonstrate anything to you. Why don't we simplify matters by my bowing down to you and acknowledging the presence of the divine in you.

          There is nothing derogatory about blondes, and nothing wrong with them possessing any physical attributes.

          Your titles are very impressive, and I hope they give you satisfaction, peace, and grace.

          - Ananth Tantri
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

            Mon, January 7, 2008 - 10:41 PM
            Wow, flowery with clever semantics and the self-important superiority of the patronizing ending is simply wonderful. I gave you my name doctor, not my "title". Just admit you messed up, and overstepped. You may convince the "tantrics" of the tantra tribe, but it does not matter to me. You cannot fool me. So you must decide what is more important, your pride, or the real truth with Yama as witness. I have stepped in it plenty of times doctor, no shame. If you contact me out of the forum, I'll let you save face.. I saw it in some movie.
      • Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

        Mon, January 7, 2008 - 12:40 AM
        Ananth wrote, "Discussion of my ego was not quite my intent though discussing my "ego" seems to be a particular fascination of yours."

        You throw your egotism in front of people so much that it's hard to avoid. You may CONSCIOUSLY think that discussion of your ego was not your intent, but your subconscious seems to be egotistically crying for attention, and, as one person pointed out, bragging about how powerful you are.

        "Khan, I'm laughing at the superior intellect."

        Namaste!
        • Look who is talking !

          This forum is for people to talk freely about their errors, and through writing and talking, heal themselves and perhaps in the process provide a learning or two for others.

          Many here could do without self styled pompous maniacs such as youself continuously pointing out flaws in everyone else.

          So you are without ego? You are not crying for attention - heck the first thing you do when anyone posts anything here is to immediately point flaws and errors in what they write drawing attention to yourself with little or no regard to what they are trying to really articulate.

          You have no capacity to learn, or heal. Your posts are built on conflict and confrontation born of pedantic and empty learning. I bet you would never know a kundalini experience if it hit you in the Sahasra with it.

          Try offering comfort and peace for a change. It may heal you. Your meagre intelligence and knowledge dripping through the open sores of ill formed argument in your posts call for the salve of humility and patience.

          Try meditation for a change.

          - Ananth Tantri
          • I don't "try" to meditate. "Try" implies potential failure. Perhaps you should stop "trying" to meditate and simply...meditate.

            Then, perhaps, you'd learn that "meditation for a change" has real meaning.

            Sorry, Ananth, I don't point out "flaws" in everyone, however I'm glad to see that you are finally acknowledging that I pointed out your flaws rather than your repeated denial. That's a step in the right direction.

            Am i without ego? Nope! But I never claimed to be by making comments implying how powerful I am and how, when I die, the super-duper-secret system that nobody else knows is going to die with me.

            I agree that there are self-styled, pompous maniacs crying for attention, here. And frankly, if you wore a monocle and had a Persian cat you'd fit in as the enemy in the next James Bond movie.

            I don't "Try" to offer comfort and peace because, as I mentioned earlier, "try" implies failure. When people need comfort and peace I do offer it. You required neither. You required a mirror. And you're so horrified at what you see you seem to regress to "I know you are but what am I attacks" simply because I hold up a mirror.

            In another Tantra-oriented tribe there is a discussion as to whether "authentic" Tantra can be taught in the West. Unfortunately, you're showing why that would be so difficult.

            Namaste!
    • Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

      Tue, January 15, 2008 - 5:59 AM
      Beloved Brother Ananth,

      I totally understand your pain, years ago I was doing a lot of deep meditation and energy exercises, but I still lacked in the moral disciplines, one-day one of my less productive employees, had made a mistake that was going to cost me thousands of dollars and I lost it and began screaming at him, within an hour he was in the hospital dying, doctors could not figure out how all of his systems were shutting down. I knew that my misuse of energy was responsible I wept and pleaded with the divine to spare me from this karmic burden, he managed to pull through it, but for several years after that, I suspended all my energy practices and worked on my moral character. With great power comes great responsibility and yet it seems to me you have learned the lesson in sharing it here, that we must humbly compassionately and kindly share the light to the level of understanding that the vessel can receive, too much light and the vessel will crack.

      Would it not be better for you to develop that compassionate intuition that would allow you to discern those that are able to receive such a gift. Why else would this technique manifest to you were it not to be propagated into the human conscious stream. I would think there are worthy vessels to receive such an awakening, individuals that have done the homework who are walking in the level of service and surrender that would allow such a gift to synergize their work and not destroy it.

      As to pride, I have come to the realization it is something that can never fully be conquered, knowing that, I am constantly in this state of humbling myself, deferring praise, and staying in a state of gratitude for the unmerited graces bestowed upon my soul. And if someone excuses me of being in pride or in ego, I fall down on my face, and acknowledge not resist any accusations. Indeed that is why these foolish people on the net exists to ever keep the faithful in deep humility.

      hiss on dear brother hiss on,
      Yosef
  • Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

    Mon, January 7, 2008 - 10:55 AM
    "Sarpa Tantra will probably die with me, similar to how the five point palm exploding heart technique dies with Pai Mei in Kill Bill 2. "

    Interesting comparison.

    Why would this technique die with you?
    • Simply, I have not come across anyone practicing it. I have decided never ever to practice it or teach it as I am not sure I am equipped or prepared to deal with all of its consequences.

      In a way I feel bad that something beautiful will perish into obscurity, but I am comforted by the fact that some tools are just too darned dangerous to be used by anyone, and therefore it is better they be hidden.

      Remember the movie Jumanji, where the kids find this amazing game with unforseen consequences, and finally decide to put it away. It is sad you are putting the game away, but you are glad you will be tormented no more.

      That is how I feel, and the reason I decided to write about it.

      Thanks for asking.

      - Ananth Tantri

      • Namaste, Ananth.

        I'd be grateful to know who your teacher was/is? More specifically, the teacher who taught you how to use this technique.

        Thanks,
        ~claude.
        • The technique has its origins in the Mahabharata... it is said that when kings and warriors come back from battle, and prior to their going back to battle, the karma of the taking of life has to be cleansed... There is no time to meditate after the battle is done, and one is too tired... what was needed was a rapid rising of the kundalini that washed away all of the karma and cleansed the chakras to renew them with vigor. This was only to be practiced as a matter of last resort as the warrior's life depended on the inner peace they needed to fight with vigor the next day. The method and technique originated there... as a sort of rapid instant kundalini rising in a tent in the battlefield... Those that practiced it, were later to become the devadasis, or dakinis thought it rapidly morphed into more than kundalini rising and became highly sexually charged... the teaching of these dakinis was left to a select set of the namboodris over a course of time and only a few families of the namboodries inherited the technique as time passed... As the potential to misuse was so obvious, the technique was banned even among ardent tantra followers...

          This is the essence of the history of it... my teachers are long gone, and are borne away into the dust... I hear their voices only in my dreams...

          Vishnu reclining on Sesha, or Shiva with a snake around him were all symbolic of the tantra, and not just the kundalini...

          - Ananth Tantri
          • Just a question, if you genuinely feel sorry for what happened and don't want to ever do this with anyone again and you do really believe its that powerful, then why are you explaining exactly how to do it on a public forum that just anyone can read and follow? That to me is the greater of the irresponsible acts.

            You may feel guilt over this one, which I agree is misguided, she was just as responsible as you, but how much more guilt do you think you will feel now? How many people are going to read this and try it - and you've just told them exactly what to do.

            It sounds like you are enjoying wallowing in the guilt of it all and bragging just a bit about how you could do it.
            • My apologies if I seemed to revel in it... just the opposite. I am tormented by it.

              And by the way, nothing that I said can be picked up and practiced by anyone. Much akin to picking "Tantra for Dummies" and being able to practice it. Nothing works without timing, practice, dedication, and years of manifesting a thought so it becomes real. Nothing that I said in my post can be applied without years of dedicated practice. So there is no fear of sharing.

              - Ananth Tantri
              • At least from my perspective, it sounds like you have no idea what you are talking about at a fairly fundamental level.

                Now, that may simply be a matter of terminology - it may be that you're talking sense, but with a complex and completely different vocabulary - but it also sounds distinctly plausible that you've activated your own "kundalini" or had somebody do it for you, without stabilizing your awareness first, resulting in running around Doing Stuff without a clear sense of goals.

                Question: anybody in your chain of initiation close to Rudrananda, Muktananda and Nityananda?

                PS: and, if you do know what you're doing, please don't imply any disrespect, apart from the disrespect for the written medium as a place for discussing these things.
      • "Remember the movie Jumanji, where the kids find this amazing game with unforseen consequences, and finally decide to put it away. It is sad you are putting the game away, but you are glad you will be tormented no more."

        Well no, it didn't remind me so much of *that* movie nor of the Kill Bill movie, either...it reminded me more of somthing along the lines of, let's say...the film, The Spanish Prisoner.
        • Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

          Tue, January 8, 2008 - 12:51 PM
          all this referencing movies makes me think that maybe you should try your hand at writing screenplays, Ananth...

          best of luck :)
          • Unsu...
             
            Maybe all the penis and pussy waving going on 'round here reflects some sort of collective insecurity about Tantra - however "relativistically" it is defined by every expert here - as a "legitimate" path or tradition, whether it be wannabe gurus from India spewing off, saying "that isn't Tantra" or the Westerners -parrots prone to appropriating rhetoric and mannerisms from somewhere else to bolster themselves against all that isn't present in this culture, or themselves for that matter?

            It sure seems this way sometimes.

            ~V~
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

              Tue, January 8, 2008 - 11:33 PM
              Its kind of like that movie "frailty", where using conventional knowledge, one thinks that the main characters are hurting innocent people because they are crazy, deluded, possibly just waving their cocks. Where as, two of them can see past phony appearances, and see what is really going on. Of course, there is the third main character who is the "voice of reason", but it is just because he cannot see deep enough... as it turns out he becomes a serial killer. Please don't hurt anyone.
  • Shakti provokes so much ego defence and offence in threads like this. So much teaching and learning available to the protagonists if they can just step back into awareness and see their projections / disowned parts.
    • Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

      Sat, January 12, 2008 - 12:50 AM

      Thanks Allano for your comment here.

      I too when began practicing raja yoga, learned to use will-power/and even anger/rage to raise kundalini. Eventually I was excited and was raising kundalini and opening third eyes of friends. Till this day some of the people I did this with back then still have open third eyes and having experiences which they had not done any meditation.

      Though, after 3 years passed the raja yoga practices, when a heart opening and following by awakening occurred, the very nature of my will power changed. It became a different kind of will no longer identified with my mental ideas. Doing what I had done with 'shakti' in the past felt like rapping her. I could no longer do such violation of my own or other's energy. I still have the ability, and years have passed and I still refuse to force my will on another person. I believe in the natural progression of each individual.

      However, I do find that connecting with the awakened heart with people, it has truly opened up people I've been in contact with, and for a number of people they have experienced authentic heart openings. Specifically I recall when I was at a massage therapist, receiving a session, and when she put her hand on my chest, she began to uncontrollably cry and shiver. I held her for the rest of the session as she experienced a heart opening. She was completely confused, and feeling in love with me. I explained to her as best as I could what was happening, though we never talked again.

      However, I try to remember to recapitulate my energy back to into myself, and whatever energy of theirs I have, I heal and send back to them. This way not creating a energy-co-dependent relationship which can become very draining!

      ultimately we can all express love, so long as we can remain clear with our own boundaries, and learn to clearly marshal our own individual energy.

      This whole concept/concern of 'ego' does in fact just disappear from conversations once an authentic awakening happens. I've experienced that one could have an awake kundalini, have super-psychic powers, and still have a big ego. And, I do believe that an awakening can happen to a person who has never experienced any of these kundalini/power things.

      However, I just do not see an awakened person doing intense kundlini practices which involve will power. Once the awakening happens or "takes place", then things are just open to happen naturally. Sometimes it just takes a small question like "shakti, will you bend for me?" and there she will go. This is because the will power is being directly from a higher chakra/vibration i.e. 4th or higher, and no longer it is needed to force shakti to do anything.

      Now days, my continuous experience is constantly discovering new things, increasing my awareness, changing and playing with my own energy configuration... using the world as a mirror to reflect back aspects of myself which I can't see easily by myself, and using that insight to grow in awareness as well make changes within my energetic configuration.

      there feels to be no goal/destination, yet there is the perpetual healing journey of human-becoming
      • Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

        Sat, January 12, 2008 - 8:02 PM
        I have read accounts of this technique, or maybe something very similar elsewhere.
        But If you think that it will really die with you you should make an extra effort to pass it on to someone else but pick the next person very wisely. It could be a lesson that way and you would do two things at once.
        It is not good to let things fester, and furthermore to let them fester in guilt. Guilt can also be an ego thing.
        This could prove that you have learned the lesson and have passed on knowledge in a smart way and a means to put the whole thing to rest in a positive way.
  • Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

    Sat, January 12, 2008 - 10:04 PM
    Ananth, I think discussing the outcome of your slip in judgement is very valuable for others who might be tempted. I can well imagine myself asking someone like you, rather imprudently, to go ahead and just "wake it up" in younger years. You were tempted by her request as I'm sure she was aware you found her attractive and used that to some advantage- it has certainly been my experience that people who possess great knowledge or power do not always exhibit the consistent self-governance that is required to manage it. It would be superb if we were only granted access to those things which we can handle but more often than not we get to play out the madness and mayhem of what happens when we get what we thought we asked for. It does seem to me that you have a great deal of responsibility to help her get things back on track and that, if it is no longer possible to meet her, a good deal of prayer should be going her way towards managing that energy in her system. I have gone through (not at the scale that you describe) harsh and unwise awakenings in energy which have in the past damaged my digestive and nervous system and which impacted close relationships- but although work is necessary to understand how to realign and rechannel things, its a very workable task. I just really think you should make sure she's looking after herself. That would be really resolving the issue.

    I don't really agree with the idea that to err is human, to admit divine.

    we err when we are acting like corpses just flailing around after our impulses. when we admit, perhaps we are getting closer to taking charge and occupying ourselves...but to admit is not divine. to admit is to recognize we are not awake. so you are saying that you made a mistake but I don't think just not repeating it again is enough- there are two practices that should follow from this event- one that helps her heal and recover stability so she can channel the gift of this energy-- two- that ensures you have arrived at a place in yourself that you would not be swayed by the argument of an attractive woman. It is not an exercise in self control to refuse to teach this technique to anyone at all. That is creating a paranoid wall. It is an exercise in control to develop the capacity to recognize who can handle such a lesson and to give it only if it is appropriate.

    This "blame me flame me" stuff is nonsense. If you're feeling guilty then there are things you need to work on. Perhaps discussing it here is the first step and I wish you well with that.

    Ramiel I really enjoyed the way you described your process- I know a lot of people who are in a big rush to "get there" which seems silly considering we'll just be jumping on the ferris wheel back to the beginning at some point- so I' m personally trying to strike that same balance between learning and development which doesn't fetishize outcome. Otherwise we forsake the instant and that's all that really exists, right?
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

      Thu, January 17, 2008 - 2:05 PM
      Some question remain

      How can this women be supported?
      Did you refer her to appropriate sources for help?
      How is she doing now?

      Ananth? This is not about you.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

        Fri, January 18, 2008 - 8:04 AM
        Ananth Tantri.

        I am little worried.

        I would like to point again what *V...below said that the woman shared the responsibility. She was equally responsible for what happened to her. She asked you for it. You did not force anything on her. You did not force her to awaken her kundalini but rather did it because she insisted.
        However, because of this one incident, isnt it rather radical or harsh to decide to never ever teach this to someone else again and let it die with you (assuming that no one else in this big wide world knows this technique {which is a little pompous I feel but one never knows})??

        On the other hand, you could take a lesson from your own mistake and pay more attention to the spiritual level that the seeker has reached so far (if you know these secret techniques, i am sure you have the psychic abilities to guage that). If you feel this person has reached some spiritual level then the next step would be to explain what you are going to do and the possible consequences to the seeker. And then let the seeker make an informed/educated decision whether to go ahead or not. I assume the seeker would be above 18yrs of age and hence be at least technically be able to own his/her share of responsibility?
        At the same time, perhaps also handle your ego in a way where your "desire to show what you know" does not get in the way of objectivity and sound/rational decisions, i.e. perhaps cultivate a more humble approach towards what you know and who you will share with the world.

        It is not for nothing that many tantric techniques are kept secret, not even written down but only orally or psychically transmitted and only to those who have shown an certain evolution in this path. Neverthless, they have been shared with those rare individuals who are trusted over so many centuries else you urself might not have learnt the sarpa tantra.



        • Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

          Fri, January 18, 2008 - 10:05 AM
          i agree with what kalas said, very beautifully written.

          i think that the key lesson here for you is to develop your sense of discrimination, so you can know when it is appropriate to use this technique, maybe the right person will come along, or maybe never........ i dont think its an all or nothing situation.
          om shanti
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

    Sat, January 19, 2008 - 11:08 PM
    is this a joke

    seriously

    so you have desires to have sex with a married woman, and you justify it in your mind that you are in a fantasy that you are awakening her kundalini,
    do you know how long it takes great yogis to awaken their kundalini

    and they would never speak of it with such pride and huger for power publicaly


    wow,

    Kali Yuga is realy an interesting time
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

      Sat, January 19, 2008 - 11:42 PM
      One thing I have observed in the past and present is that those who either claim themselves to be grand yogis and intergalactic gurus and equally as important those who project that onto them - usually hopeful but naive, simple-minded people looking for guidance and a leader, and often someone they wish to do their thinking for them is....

      that those super yogis and intergalactic gurus are in fact human, just like everyone else, and carry with them all of their possible character strengths and beautiful grace, and ability to explain difficult abstractions in more human understandable terms; all of their possible frailties and flaws, weakenesses and insecurities just like everyone else on the planet, and yes all of the colorful hand baggage of ego that may or may not match the flowing robes and the jargon that many seem to want and need to hear.

      Doesn't seem to matter if their chirpy compelling Indian novelties that you might want to cuddle becasue they're so cute, or some slick talkin western version reeking of essential oils and quaint gemstones, or whatever possible stereotype that might come to mind ( that is often amusingly true in terms of how such a leader is often imagined in many cases)

      they are people just like you and me and everyone else, with perhaps some much greater and deeper understandings of themselves and the universe that your average layperson simple will never comprehend.

      I have yet to meet a perfect person and I never will. Perfect people do not exist and they never will. I can't imagine how perfect people would be that interesting actually.

      But many of us - and maybe more increasingly so - are trying to be better and more informed people in our imaginings and in our becomings of who we actually are, as well as who we are supposed to be.


      Personally, I expect our stuttering collective missteps as much as I would expect any one to make in taking steps in an effort at being a better person. It's a tremendously bad cliche but we all learn a lot from falling down and learning how to pick ourselves back up, super yogis and intergalactic gurus included.

      ~V~
      • Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

        Sun, January 20, 2008 - 3:35 PM
        ~V~:
        We are ALL perfect people, individually, as we are. We are perfect in this place and time. Because the concept of 'perfect' is abstract, who is to say what it truly means?

        Ananth;
        The big thing you're missing is that you are bringing judgement upon your actions, the woman's actions, and the actions of those who have posted on this tribe. You aired your mistake as an act of something that the rest of us can only guess at. Others responded because your words moved them to do so, in some direction only they could know.

        There is no right or wrong in this Universe, there is only Here and Now. The lessons you learned from that incident were lessons you woulndn't have learned in any other fashion, and the woman also learned lessons that she could learn no other way. Why do these things happen? Because they must....they must for everything to be perfect.

        However, I would caution you to behave in a kind manner toward those who were moved to answer your words with their own. If you don't want their opinions, you have the option of keeping your words to yourself.

        • Unsu...
           

          Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

          Mon, January 21, 2008 - 12:53 AM
          How important is to say NO,
          to some clients, friends
          when they look like they need help
          when they ask like they need help from us.
          Sometimes they need somebody
          who will play rescuer game, or persecutor game with them.
          If we do not notice it on time - some of us ends in this drama
          as a victim, Usually both.
          It took me time to learn to say NO - I can not help to you.
          It is very healthy indeed.
          My way in this case would be - to refer her to counsellor.
          • Mat
            Mat
            offline 0

            Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

            Tue, January 22, 2008 - 9:09 PM
            Did you see her as a daka or did you just do her a favor as personal "friend"? As a friend you can help her better than as a daka, which is more a business relation? There is a difference between therapeutic and friendship relations.

          • Unsu...
             

            Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

            Sat, January 26, 2008 - 5:57 PM
            We see life according to the perspective we personally nurture and are trained in. I am inclined to believe that all parties involved have an enormous amount of personal growth and work ahead and not just the woman. To single out the woman as being the only one perhaps "stuck," seems very unlikely and perhaps even unfair. We don't know what she is going through, really!

            When it comes to personal work, a "superiority complex" is sure much harder to balance than perhaps various "inferiority complexes," although, I want to be rather careful and NOT assume anything in this case. Not every scenario has to end up in drama... it ends up in drama if there are third parties involved; people have their own interests at stake. Naturally people are very territorial when it comes to relationships and that also shows that "feeling safe" is one of the many other issues we are dealing with here. If we think about this further we realize that perhaps the vast majority of us too have some work ahead, when it comes to "safety issues." Feeling safe on our own... without (allowing) another person manipulating us/ or our "Kundalini" (perhaps a nice fantasy indeed in some cases...:-) are just some of the basic issues to address. Anyway!

            People who are into new age neo-tantra, or in various other developed "tantra"- hybrids taken from exposing the secrets of advanced traditional even Buddhist tantra, certainly have the courage to explore new ways of relating, one got to give them that much, right? Although we need to remind ourselves that what is explored will be in all honesty be considered unethical by some more traditional spiritual pathways and the sex-therapy community at large at this point in time (this kind of "healing modality" is evolving rapidly...). Since, we don't know how the scenario evolved, it's wise to hope for the best outcome for all, since the "mistake" can be seen from too many levels, depending on personal and professional interests of those involved.

            According to time, space, and person, we all go through our learning and growth processes, depending on the circumstance, wishing the best is all we can do for now.








            • Unsu...
               

              Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

              Sat, January 26, 2008 - 6:59 PM
              Hence, we see what we nurture and want to see - with the result of more often than not, being out of line and inaccurate in our assumptions and assessments. Again, wishing for the best outcome of the situation!
  • Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

    Wed, February 27, 2008 - 4:00 AM
    OK, the first post I read on this tribe......


    What matters most to me when reading this thread is that this sounds not too much different than faulty shamanism. This experience indeed did not heal her, it essentially got her high for a while and allowed you (the tnatric practitioner) to indulge in sensual experieinces masked as spirituality.

    Sex is sex.....

    Tantra is tantra........

    Indeed, moving others energy is egoic, but your post is not something to trigger condemnation within me. I also would like to point out that while I do have something highly critical to say about your practice, that I agree that there are a few people on here putting themselves forward and higher by pointing out irrelevant and completely presumtious motivations for your post, robbing you off the much needed discussion, which is about understanding the experience, and not beating yourself up over the way you posted this. Sure, you may come off a little too holy for some who don't see the proportionate restraint required for the knowledge, but that is what seperates it from wisdom my friend. I am glad that you are aware of this situation, but look at the bigger picture man.

    The whole kundalini thing, while I enjoy reading about it, is usually kept a secret for a reason. Manipulating energy through lattent patterns is un-natrual, just think about that. Our bodies are more in touch with that intelligence than our conscious and contaminated minds are.

    I think that your practice should be put to rest my friend. It's allright, although I have never made that specific mistake, I know what it is like to bring power into a body that cannot support it. It literaly fries your circuits. Your body downregulates that power for many reasons. You are a magician, but we need more than that from you. We need a saint, that can lead by example and show your true power. For if you had complete power through meditation, you would not succumb to these primal urges and rationalize them as a spiritual journey, because you know very well that there was apart of you that was completely aware of the situation and the consequences. I can not stress the importance of integrity enough for those who enter the house of mirrors. The mirrors are very tricky, and can easily fool you into thinking that they are the true reality, but there is a very subtle way of realizing the difference, that is if you have this energy for yourself.

    Like I said, I can understand and sympathize with your motivation, but you are being used by the false self. Rather than saying something lacks in your mind to maintain restraint, I would say that something still remains, and I would reccomend conscious examination of it.

    Why are you so driven to wake others up who are not ready? Are you indeed satisfied with your experience of being? If so, how could one who is fully satisfied still have an appitite for lower urges? How can one who still has a mind "down there" think that they are capable of resolving others problems? There have been many guru's who have lost disciples because of unscrupulous actions, which all point to the fact that the master has alot of work to do indeed, and that the master is more like a student, in a sense that there is a lack of context of how the game plays out.

    This is what I warn of, a new trend, not of psychedelic drugs, but yoga! These methods are a result of meditation, not the cause of it. Anything that I practice is a result of my previous practice. These experiences are useful in a sense of creating faith, but the downside is that one will cling to the result of concentration, and at the same time, completely lose focus of the light because now the light illuminates the patterns, and they become interesting enough to break concentration. Once you focus your light on them, you reinforce the patterns, hindering your own awakening.

    I am just speaking from expereince friend, and I don't think it is something you should feel bad about, I think you should take that otherwise wasted energy and make things right in the womens life. Indeed learn this lesson, there are many powerful beings on earth, but being a good conductor or a good data bank has a harsh penalty, and that is that it allows you to get into much more complicated and sticky situations where logic and reasoning are easily exhausted through blurry boundaries if you lack the insight to maintain integrity, which comes from the motivation to ignore the less exciting possibilities of life.

    Drop the methods, and feel the pain, much more direct way to understanding, that is, if you are ready to really know why this happened.

    I am glad that you did bring this out, because this just goes to show how creepy things can get with yoga. If you really love someone, respect their free will, even their own unconscious motivation to remain asleep. Only a self generated experience of light can produce the faith needed to move on, otherwise there will always be doubt, and justification for abandonment of the path. Patterns needs to be consciously broken through examination and acceptance, and they will remain when someone temperarly pushes them aside to get high.
  • Re: A Tantric Mistake - Consequences and learnings

    Wed, February 27, 2008 - 6:18 AM
    Thank you Ananth for such a confession; it would warn many who consider themselves as Tantrik teachers without responsibility. This is why in the pure tradition of Tantra it is essential to have a Guru's certificate to become another Guru. A teacher is not always a Guru. A Guru can only initiate a disciple with the total knowledge and insight about the disciple's character and how the initiation would effect the disciple. Sex in Tantra should not be acted with even a pinch of attraction-material in it.

    One who has transcended sex can only initiate someone into transcendental sex which has nothing to do with pleasure seeking. Metaphorically this has been illustrated in Shiva's mythological character. When Paravati cannot find out any other way to awaken Shiva towards Her she calls for the help of Kama and Rati (Cupid and Venus) symbol of sex and attachment. Shiva looks at Her passion through His third eye of Wisdom and Kama gets burnt out. After Kama, sex, is dead Shiva comes into eternal intercourse which is known as Tantric sex. It is sad that today whores call themselves dakinis and dakas and mere pleasure seeking is designed as Tantric sex in the West and more recently into East also. Sarpa Tantra would not die with you because the essential understanding and teaching of it are with many others who do not use it for mere pleasures. If the process had really awakened her kundalini and passed through her ajna chakra, it would have never called for a showdown. There is a popular Indian proverb about Tantric sex :

    If a Goddess passes a night with a fallen yogi, she turns into a whore the next morning.
    If a whore passes a night with a Siddha, she turns into a Goddess the next morning.
  • Hi Ananth,

    Forgive me if my question sounds disrespectful: How may kundalini be drawn beyond Ajna in someone who hasn't purified his/her nadis, hasn't cleared away blockages from sushumna, hasn't achieved chitta suddhi, etc...

    All this sounds too flipping to me... Weren't you speaking about a pranothana (prana shot from muladhara) instead of a kundalini rising?

    Thanks!
    • Panoramix, is it possible that the claim that someone can't have a transcendent kundalini experience without purifying the nadis, clearing blockages in the sushumna, etc., is simply dogma from people who have never had such an experience at all?

      It is possible that the claim by so many Tantrics, that sexual activity automatically raises the kundalini is the result of their experience rather than just following dogma?

      Is it possible that people wanting to maintain power over followers make something that is common sound difficult because they can't do it and they need to create mental blocks in their followers to prevent the movement of the kundalini?

      Is it possible that Tantrics laugh at the people who claim to help others achieve transcendence actually give messages to prevent that experience?

      I don't know. I'm just wondering if it's possible?

      Namaste!
      • Hi Shambhalanth,

        I don't think it is a dogma, at least for the vast majority of people. That is what i have read from trusted sources (Satyananda, Vishnudevananda, Arthur Avalon...), controlling people is the last thing i would expect from them. However there may be individuals born in conditions that allow their K to fully or partially manifest without undergoing yogic cleansing practices, but they should be rare.

        The explanations given for the K phenomena are pretty reasonable and logical. When K rises the prana in the region through which She passes, converges in the central channel (nadi brahma, inside sushumna), letting that part of the body in a corpse-like state due to the withdrawal of that prana. For this to happen, nadis should be clean and overt. The converged prana is somehow absorbed into K herself, as it is said in the Tantra Shastras, the very body of Goddess K are the bija mantras found in the chakras and their petals. In this way, as She "climbs" nadi brahma, the tattwas (elements), shaktis (forces), tanmatras and indriyas (senses) of the pierced chakras are withdrawn into Her. But all this in pretty difficult to happen if blockages in sushumna are not cleared. She may try to find her way to bindu through other main nadis causing thus disorders in the subtle and physical bodies.

        Anyway, Ananth spoke about drawing that womans K beyond Ajna. To my understanding, that equals to an enlightenment in tantric terms. That is what strikes me, ¿How can anyone experience an enlightenment by the agency of other, was he/she powerful or not?

        • Yes, Panormix, I believe that is what you read. And we all know that the things we read are ALWAYS right. :) LOL!

          Yes, I've read all of that too. I've also been to dozens of classes by various teachers who all share something similar to that. And all of those teachers have one thing in common: none of them have ever had a Kundalini experience! They're too busy cleaning nadis and chitrinis, and purifying their chakras to know a Kundalini experience if it bit them in the Ajña chakra.

          On the other hand, I've also had sexual partners who, through visualization during extended sexual activity present many of the indications of Kundalini transcendence.

          Yes, I agree, the explanations given by all the teachers who have never had a Kundalini experience--or ones who have but who want to keep it their personal secret and not allow others in--seem very reasonable. Isn't it possible, though, that intentionally or otherwise, they are simply keeping people out by convincing them they "aren't ready" for a Kundalini experience? I mean, I really can't see someone sitting around 5,000 years ago, after having a Kundalini experience, and going, "Well, let's see what I did. I cleaned my nadis. I made sure the chitrinis were clear, too. I purified my chakras. I studied the Vedas--especially those that hadn't been written." I just don't think so.

          One of the "secrets" of Tantric traditions I'm familiar with is that extended sexual activity will result in the movement of the Kundalini. I've personally experienced this as have some of my partners and friends.

          But you seem to be more focused on "writing" even though much of Tantra is an oral tradition. That's okay. I would suggest the book "A guide to Shaktipat" by Shivom Tirth. In it, the author tells how this sign of the movement of the Kundalini can be acquired by the grace of the guru or by long studies and practice. However, he makes the curious statement that the Naths (a Tantric sect) accomplish it much more quickly! How can you do all of those practices more quickly? Do the Naths have a secret that is not widely known? Does the fact that the name I was initiated with, Shambhala Nath, give a clue? LOL!

          I have seen entire rooms exhibit signs of K by the grace of a guru, so I would say it is possible for another to bring it about. However, I have already commented on what Anath (i.e., the "a" at the beginning would indicate a negative, hence "not a Nath") wrote and have no desire to go there again.

          Namaste!
          • Unsu...
             
            I have seen very many people who fell over in Samadhi... they were lying there for hours sometimes and people put blankets on them to keep them warm, massaging them sometimes. They were in total absorption states. So if that is not a kundalini experience, then what is! These were normal people, not even teachers!!!

            Many people have kundalini experiences of the more slow moving subtle type, or the more intense sudden type.... Just go to India, you will see how normal it can be to have kundalini experiences, or any occult experiences commonly overrated in the West.

            Also, how do you know these teachers never had an experience? Most people can't continue on a spiritual path which offers them NOTHING! There needs to be some spiritual experience or incentive. iI's not all just personal and psychological weakness why people continue their tantric sadhana practice. In many traditions it is considered egotistical to brag about such personal experiences and often people go some time without any experiences as well. Sometimes they go through a dry spell as well and it appears as f their practice is ineffective - till it suddenly the vibe turns around again bringing ever new absorption experiences.

            Sometimes, I sure wonder if we talk about different kinds of realizations and enlightenment. At the end, what matters most to me is to see people happy - regardless of how they achieve it. Some people prefer the more subtle path which they can walk on their own. Others wish for some intimacy. There are so many states of bliss and even the lower states of experiences are often mistaken for the higher states. Since they are all wonderfully connecting in their blissful spaciousness.... well, just let people be happy!

            How does one judge that somebodies kundalini has risen, indeed I want to know... ? One does not have to flop like a wet fish around on the ground (hehehe...), become emotionally unbalanced, to have an experience. Some can take the vibe quietly, others fall over... it all depends. How do we judge a kundalini experience? What are the signs?

            I am sure Satpuranandajii would be an expert in answering this question well.


            • Unsu...
               
              And yet, there are some folks who are not only very skilled in helping people, but also very gifted teachers who can and do further along others' "evolution," regardless of whether or not they've had some variation of a Kundalini Awakening or are "certified" from some Guru bootcamp.

              Most of the "Gurus" who make their inevitable rounds in the Bay Area passing around the donation bowl for love donations end up appearing like disingenuous charlatans to me looking for marks.

              And yet, even they have something of value to say from time to time.

              ~V~

          • Shambahala Nath :-) dude, this was hilarious ""Well, let's see what I did. I cleaned my nadis. I made sure the chitrinis were clear, too. I purified my chakras. I studied the Vedas--especially those that hadn't been written.""

            Kundalini is an interesting phenomena... I've learned recently that it's possible to re-configure my chakras... it's possible to create more chakras or reduce them... chakras in a way don't even mean much... you can have infinite chakras... it's like building out a system... as I reconfigure them they make different hums... it's like just a big train set that you can reconfigure anyway you want...

            in the old days where I had a 'teacher' an avadhut, he thought me to create different pranic paths in my energetic body that were un-natural... through the process I learned the methods to begin converting the body into light... he called it ionizing my body... I didn't eat food for weeks, nor sleep... when I did the prana practices he taught me (which he would go out of his body step into mine after he had instructed me how to do it and would perform it in my body for me for the first few times till I could get the path right)... they were crazy times and amazing experiences


            the Hindu/Yogic systems are just models we do not have to emulate we can create different configs... and as I have been doing this...
            I saw that when Kundalini was rising recently... instead of rising through my old images of chakras, nadi's... and the sushumna... it just rose up and I got an image of my spine... it went into the brain... it took a dive back down and landed into the red heart... at the depth of the heart there was the source of consciousness which I kept going deeper into..... the funniest part I saw the kundalini rising up my spine like it had two ears (right and left nadi)... hence it's something form-less... we can give it form as a method for us to observe it... we can change the form... we can give it different paths and configurations

            ultimately those configurations were made to make for a 'safe journey' to the top... and back in to the core... but later it can all be changed... and those configs are just limitations and can all be dropped

            I think I'm just getting bored with all the conventional knowledge on kundalini/tantra/meditation in books and tribe... some new topics need to start... some new fresh perspectives
          • Shambalanth,

            You are blessed by a master and tantric partners, this is not my case, for me writings and the yogic path are the only to follow for now, and it really works. Actually i can feel during pranayama the kundalini shakti drilling my brahma granti at the base of sushumna, making my body jerk, i feel pleasant, powerful electric discharges and sparks throughout my trunk and head... Vishnudevananda and Satyananda were/are realized souls (and of a great lineage) and did have K experiences, no doubt.

            Nath Yogis? I recently read about they taught Jesus Christ some yogic techniques during his sojourn in India. What do you think? :)
            • Unsu...
               
              Honestly, when I read Sapuranandaji's post I realize how little I really know myself about the many different ways the kundalini rises. Even if it rises, how to proceed in the most healthy manner remains a question in some instances.

              It almost looks as if all roads "lead to Rome" and yet, there are certainly more elevating and integrative ways to experience kundalini energy than going through dramatic life experiences.

              Thank you Satpuranandaji for coming forth. This is the kind of learning and understanding I am actually drawn to. All to often it seems as if we can't talk to each other straight - with all the possibilities and complexities involved. It's not surprising that we have to sort through confusions at first.

              Thank you for your amazing post Kulavaduta Satpuranandaji.
              Namaste
              Maya
            • Panoramix, one of the things about the Tantric traditions I've studied, been initiated into, and practiced, is that experience is more important that what any book says. Therefore, if something works for you, by all means use it! That's the most important thing.

              To make clear, I wouldn't say that they classic texts about what is necessary for Kundalini to move are "wrong." Rather, I would simply say that what they describe is only one way, not the only way.

              Concerning the Naths teaching Jesus...
              There are traditionally nine Nath sects, and I'm not familiar with the teachings of all of them. So I don't know which Nath sect it would be.

              However, and perhaps more importantly (and this should be discussed in another thread and/or another tribe) I've seen no evidence that any person named Jesus about whom the stories of the four Gospels give a "history" ever existed. So it would be impossible for any Nath yogi to teach a non-existent person. Is it possible that there was someone named Jesus at that time? Absolutely. "Jesus" is a name that came into English from the Aramaic or Hebrew through Greek. If it came directly, without the Greek input, it would simply be "Joshua" in English, and Joshua was--and is--a very popular name. So could a person named Joshua have traveled from the Middle East into India? There is good evidence that indeed, there were caravans and some communications between the areas.

              I am familiar with the supposed manuscripts documenting the life of "St. Issa" in India and especially Tibet, and many assume that this is the same person as the mythic Jesus. Beside there being a lot of skepticism about the manuscripts being real, they still don't show that Issa and Jesus are the same.

              Some Christians do not like the notion that Jesus is a myth. However, we all have myths we can live by and they can be important in our lives and in making us better people. Further, most of what is called "Christianity" today has little to do with Jesus and far more to do with people such as St. Paul, St. Augustine, etc.

              Namaste!

              • in the spoken language, Jesus was "Maran Eesho Mshikha"
                Maran is the one who up-lifts us from ignorance... directly meaning same as Guru
                Eesho... is like isho which likely how it became isah ( I do not know the full meaning, I believe that's his name)
                Mshikha means the one who is anointed... this word later became "messiah"

                I speak Aramaic fluently. I've also found many links between Aramaic and the Upanishadic languages.

                Even today, Jesus is called as "Issah Massih" in Persian and Afghani languages... i.e. same as what Tibetans called the St. Issah

                ...

                Regarding the classical/conventional practices, and they not being the only way, of course I would agree. However, I think I'm perhaps being taken as a lunatic when I say we can reconfigure our pranic paths, change our chakra configurations... though I'm dear serious about this and I've had classical training with full 3 years of intense sadhana under an avadhut teacher which lead to siddhi's and nirvikalpa samadhi in 2004. I've begun discovering much unconventional knowledge that I've not read anywhere since then through posing questions and allowing essence cognizant of itself respond.... and of course just playing around with configurations and daring to try unconventional things. What I found recently while "playing" with the higher chakra's... it was a chakra far above the 7th, perhaps going upwards to 20+ I saw that I had made a connection with an Aghori Guru who is no longer in physical flesh.

                dropping away the texts, classical methods, dogmas, traditions, and riding the journey inwardly... letting one's ethic's be derived directly from the inner-self-knowledge.


                This is a very long thread... I apologize for being a bit out of context. Shambahalanath and Kulavadhuta its self-evident you both come from a lot of training equipped with true-practice and experiences... it's always fun reading your posts.
                • Ramiel, I bow to your expertise in Aramaic.

                  However, the term "messiah" clearly comes from Hebrew, not Aramaic.

                  I have no doubt that TODAY people refer to Jesus as "Issah Massih" in Persian and Afghani. However, that does not prove that the person described in the Gospels as Jesus ever existed back then, or that the purported documents showing that "Saint Issa" went to Tibet ever existed.

                  You wrote, "...we can reconfigure our pranic paths, change our chakra configurations..." and fear that people take you as a lunatic. One of the Nath sects is the Pagal Nath or "Crazy Lords." In a style similar to that of Gurdjieff, they would say and do "crazy" things to break people out of their common conscious state, one that is really a sort of "sleeping."

                  I would suggest that, indeed, we can change the energy paths and the chakra configurations. This is not talked much about, or written much about, as the techniques and inner methods are often a guarded secret. However, just to give an idea, the term "yoga" means "union," and is usually taken to mean "union with the Godhead." So how can the assumption of pretzel positions in Hatha Yoga (what most Westerners mean when they say "yoga") help one achieve this union?

                  The answer is surprisingly simple, although often ignored. Normally, the chakras are in certain relationships with each other. However, taking a simple position such as "Downward Dog" realigns the chakras in relation to each other, as well as in relation to the Earth and the Heavens. It changes the way they interrelate. It changes the way the prana and kundalini flows.

                  Is it any wonder that (Hatha) yoga can be so powerful? Is it any wonder that the straight "Corpse Pose" is used so often to end (Hatha) yoga sessions, as it restructures the relationships of the chakras and power paths back to their "normal" (i.e., most common) positions and states?

                  But then, nobody is really talking about this so I must be crazy. Of course, there are those Pagal Nathas...

                  Namaste!

                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    sweet bigheartedness... Shambalanath thank you for expressing love through your words... Kula looks scary... he's got a sweet heart inside too. It's amazing how strong we must become before we can dare to be so sweet and innocent within.

                    I've read some places that Hebrew pre-dates Aramaic, however the Hebrew that pre-dated Aramaic isn't the modern Hebrew... that the modern Hebrew is actually a stem from the Aramaic. Have you heard of this before?

                    I'm no linguist or history person... frankly I get bored studying history... I end up realizing things about history much more through my meditations... but what proof do I have for any of that? I wish there was a device that was like a record button that I could record the many experiences within... For example I would be in meditation and all of a sudden have an experience, then my mind activates and remembers that I recall Jesus, or Krishna, or whomever once having said something about the experience I'm having in that moment... then my mind goes and merges with the mind of Jesus... recently I witnessed part of the dialog of Krishna and Arjuna from the perspective of essence in mediation... it was quite profound... it was about the impact of guru/disciple relationship leading to self-realization vs. individual awakening without these guru/disciple games... the significance of how if someone reaches self-realization it is more powerfully grounded in essence vs. the individual path... all of a sudden I find myself feeling like I am Jesus, I begin seeing his life and what's going on... I see Mary... and my she is really beautiful, I find out things I don't dare to even talk about... then eventually I come back to my localized self and recall the experiences... frankly I in my mind I'm always having a feeling like I'm insane... then I end up going and referring to books and I find that what I experienced gets validated. the question about my sanity always remains! half the time I'm trying to figure out who am I right now?


                    It is fascinating that you brought up how we change our energetic paths/chakras through Hatha Yoga! Thank you for this! This will lead me to deeper contemplation in realizing the significance of these asans more deeply!

                    Though the Hindu/Yogic systems are based on having certain number of chakra's being 7... the mantra, kriya, etc practices are based around this system. It's an amazing network that all works together. However, it's possible to change things quite heavily. Though when using for example mantra's they re-inforce the Hindu (likely Rishi developed) system... which naturally will lead to people experiencing the 7 chakras, the same petals and vibrations etc... but my theory is that it is all synthetic... it is designed and created! this brings up much deeper questions of what you are pre all of these systems...


                    and what would Kundalini be without Hindusim/Tantra/etc"

                    suddenly that question changes the context of everything.. it's really the journey to no-mind

                    namaha
                    • Hi, Ramiel.

                      The Hebrew language pre-dates Aramaic. However, the *pronunciation* of Hebrew, if not lost, certainly became corrupted. A group known as the Masoretes, who reconstructed the pronunciation based on what was known, what was believed, and the Aramaic. They literally helped to bring a dead language back to life.

                      The Hebrew letter Vahv (sometimes called that Vau) is an example of the changes. Today, depending upon context (and indicated by points and lines, the "vowels" placed around the letter) may sound like a V as in victor, a U that rhymes with the word "too," or an O as in low. Anciently it also may have sounded like a W, and some people refer to it as a Waw.

                      While most people are familiar with the 7-chakra system, there is evidence that there was an earlier system that only used three chakras, those that today we would call the 2nd, 5th, and 7th. On the other hand, when working with the Sri Yantra there are nine chakra (although the 8th and 9th are often seen as parts of one chakra).

                      Namaste!

                      • Thanks for the info about Aramaic and Hebrew.

                        Regarding chakras and Sri Yantra... I never realized how they were related. I haven't done any practices with Yantra's however since last 8 years I effortlessly see the Sri Yantra in my forehead... I saw it first and had no idea what it was till later I found it in a book. I believe when I first saw it I was practicing the Gayatri Mantra and had learned how each part of it related to different parts of my physical body. It's one of those things that comes along the path which I don't know what to do with it...

                        I clearly perceive there are nearly infinite chakra's when I look up... it's just a matter of building up and grounding more energy in my lower body and that allows me to reach the higher chakra's without loosing my grounded-ness.

                        I believe the nine charka's you are referring to is those three which are in-side the head right? I believe this is actually where recently my kundalini has been rising and I've begun tapping to what I can only describe as essence being cognizant of essence... and as my localized mind-string is also there in unison, when I pose a question, answers along with divine visions which come with meaning (without words but meaning is transferred) are coming. It seems to be directly related to the Kundalini taking this path in the head. The other path I've found is that of going up to the head then there is another path to take a dip down into the heart... and this is where the seat of consciousness seems to begin...

                        however that still brings into question the upper chakra's... the 7th and beyond... literally I perceive well over 20+ at this time and I've made connections to different entities usually they are different Master's. It is a bit stretching my energy when I focus that high up, so I'm not crystal clear with them.. I first had to take notice with them as I had made a connection with an Aghori Guru and it was causing fluctuations on my 7th and 6th chakra's from up there... and the only way to have him stop was to raise my conciousness to that chakra and release myself... in that journey I began realizing that it's possible to change the configurations...

                        when I make a lot of configuration changes I've also noticed my body will go through a "rolling black out" where from the bottom up everything shuts down.. as it reaches the stomach the breath stop, the heart, it stops beating, the ajna the two 4-petal flowers stop spinning... the top of head the mind shuts off... it's a full death... then slowly life starts up again... it feels like when you take your computer and do a bunch of patches and then you have to do a reboot.

                        Does what I'm saying relate to you? Do you have any lights to shine on these subjects? Does anyone?

                        namasteh
                        • Hi Ramiel:

                          I'm fascinated by the details of your transcending awarenesses, but can't offer any help with understandings of them. I really like your description of the process as being like computer patches being applied, and then the system requiring a reboot. I relate my practices of meditation and work with other tantrika partners as being like a defrag of my hard drive, i.e. (from Wikipedia): "...a process that reduces the amount of fragmentation in file systems. It does this by physically reorganizing the contents of the disk to store the pieces of each file close together and contiguously. It also attempts to create larger regions of free space using compaction to impede the return of fragmentation. Some defragmenters also try to keep smaller files within a single directory together, as they are often accessed in sequence." I feel like my process is about re-alignment and re-organization so as to function better, energetically, on ALL systems. Sometimes I finish exhausted and hollowed out; and sometimes in wonderful bliss and lightness of being.

                          Blessings,

                          Allan
                          • ...oh, and a P.S., Ramiel:

                            Coming from a transpersonal therapeutic and body psychology model, my work on myself over the past 4 years or so has been characterized by defragging of my physical systems: nervous, musculature, skeletal, etc. with the bolts of kundalini shakti energy blasting through and running up against somas and blockages caused by past environmental, inter-generational and karmic neuroses and traumas -- and slowly clearing them off, often in very painful, and excruciating sessions. Recent work centred around what I understand to be a karmic debt of victimization and abuse I've been carrying for generations, twinned with my mother (info provided by my astrologer), through a sequence of: interpretation of a dream, a guided visualization based on the dream, several Shakti shakedowns with a tantrik partner and in a self-pleasuring and in group context; and a final revelational drawing of 3 cards from my set of random postcards.

                            And further, my daily existence and most meditation sessions are interrupted by spontaneous kriyas and bursts of energy on an ongoing basis. I just sit with these and allow them to pass. And at the end of my meditation sessions, I do a chakra scan and sit with and work with / integrate whatever imbalances I note and feel. Most of the imbalances appear to be in root and two and three, with evident harmony and balance the rest of the way up.

                            Any feedback or observations you may provide on this work would be appreciated.

                            Namaste,

                            Allan

                            • Dear Allan O.,

                              Responding to your second post to me... first thank you for sharing your deep shifts... sometimes I wonder if there are others who are going through all this or not? I mean we're all talking about chitrinis/chakras/nadis... let me through in another one vrittis (i.e. chakra impressions based on karmas)... all that is so detached in a way vs. the what's really going on.

                              We are all on the path of "human becoming" what the Sufi's call "ensan'eh kamel" i.e. "the complete human"
                              to be this, it takes more than just sitting in a hut (in my case closet for 7 hours on a daily basis for 3 years)...
                              I can state that all the Samadhi in the world isn't enough... you can sit in Samadhi for days... you can be physically beaming with light and still that's not enough

                              I really like to see our human development in 3 dimensions... 1st that of Spirituality i.e. what some paths like Zen will focus on (as Kula pointed to some of this with regards to Osho deciples)... 2nd that of Therapy i.e. the body pscyhology model that you pointed towards which is needed to be a "functional" human being in society... all the Samadhi and meditation in the world wont' be enough to build learn to be with others... to be in the world... and 3rd that of what I could name as "energy mastery" and that is what all of this Kung Fu, Chi Kung, Tai Chi, Reiki, Kundalini, Light Work, Energy Workers is all about... the ability to say like Ananth in this post of awakening someone's Kundalini... or of for example a Tantric being able to take many people into orgasim by just directing his attention towards them.

                              What I would add to this 1/2/3 dimensions of building the complete human being is that any combo of them is possible, and attainment of one doesn't mean you have attained the others. For example I would challenge that a Spirituality awakened Master such as Ramana Maharshi which is as close as what we can call God Consciousness wouldn't necessary have the social interaction skills, might still have many body traumas and triggers (which he was pretty much fully detached from). And he may not be able to levitate, fly through the sky, et all energy mastery things. In another example, a person could be a Master at energy, he can awaken Kundalini's, have constant divine visions, and he may still not have true realization of the eternal Self... there is some inter-relation. there are plenty of literally insane human beings sitting in asylums for the mentally ill who are having the kundalini experiences we can only dream about... as Kundalini can make you crazy.

                              To bring some of what I'm talking about home and better address your post... through your practices, will power, intent/wishes to heal et all you have started a process of unfolding. Hence the "energy blasting through and running up against somas..." After the deep experience I had in Nov 2004, it was as the whole vail was lifted, and I spent 3 months in this unfolding that I could only categorize as my "trauma processing phase". I would be sitting silently working at home, then all of a sudden I would be feeling such deep emotional releases that I would be screaming and tears running down... it was like I was stranded in the middle of the ocean... there was NO LAND IN SIGHT... all I could do was make sure I can conserve my energy for the next wave to come... the got deeper and deeper. One time I was sitting in my apartment and all of a sudden this deep silent anger arose, it was so intense that I do not think in thousands of life times I could have accrued that much anger to release, I could only categorize that as divine anger/or anger within some collective... I just sat there calmly as it arose in me... if someone had walked in the room at that moment I may have killed them.

                              The next stage after the trauma processing was that it got deeper. Now I would be sitting and all of a sudden I would get teleported into different realms, and began having visions... I would not call them visions... it was like my body got teleported and it was more real to me than even my own wakeful state... and I would be addressing archetypes... it was more of a casual world... I had to face death it self and it lead to falling in love with death.... I recall shortly after this when my cat was run over by a train, I was filled with joy... I tried hard to be sad, it wasn't possible. Even now if anyone I know dies close to me, it's a great joy as that deep intimate connection I have is filled with this space of emptiness and death which I know to be my home... it's like when it's fall and the leaves are falling away... it's always just the tree... He'll have leaves again.

                              After this second stage, things really calmed down. No longer I had any trauma processing. I had to literally search for trauma triggers. I started going out to dance clubs and would feel body fears come up etc and would address them. By this time, as soon as something came up, most of the time my conciousness would begin working it out. Sometimes I had to go to body work sessions to assist with it unfolding. At some point even that was finished which is where I am now...

                              So now there doesn't seem to be any unfolding... rather there is more of an active exploring and trying different things. I'm actively working on things and finding new ways to re-create myself. I see myself as my own Father, my own Mother, my own Lover, an energetic being having voided my contracts with the Earth, and at least being my own Re-Creator. I am able to perceive my own full configuration and make changes to it.

                              Now and then, I get surprised, and more stuff comes up... for example I run a business that manages 24x7 very serious dead-critical e-businesses for other companies... now I have enough staff that there is technical managment and staff, accounting mgmt and staff, and even a person who has pretty much taken over my COO role, so now I'm having to begin doing sales... cold-calling, leads et all... all of this is me doing something new and as I go into it, I begin feeling my body tremble and shake with fear at first... then I do grounding energy work on myself, I go read couple of books on how to do this, and by this coming week I'll start doing my first cold-calls... the beauty of life being that it allows certain reflections of myself to appear to me which I would not have seen otherwise... a raw example being can you tell if you are selfish if you are all alone in the desert?

                              To make an example, a simple one about "Mother Love" since you brought that as being a painful experience. Know that within you (I'm sure you know this) is Mother Love, you can project Mother Love to your daughter, so just imagine Allan as the Mother giving Allan (the you now) Mother Love... then switch and imagine you are receives that Mother Love from yourself... then keep switching your perspective from this visualization back and forth... you'd be surprised, just imaging this it will work! it will work wonders... or if you need Lover Love, just imagine a beautiful woman you are attracted to with the intent that you are creating her and she is an expression of your own energy, one that you are creating... then imagine her coming to embrace you... and give you that Lover Love... then switch and imagine yourself receiving this Lover Love from Your Lover (which is you)... keep switching back and forth between the receiving and giving... all of a sudden you'll notice all the tension you had in your body is gone... and all of a sudden you find erotic energy rising in your body etc. This is what I mean by Self-Referencing. Anything that gives you pain is usually when you place some need outside...

                              of course there's more... what I found is there are many different categories of conciousness
                              sub-conciousness - imagine it below your feet, you put it there since it's too scary perhaps to face
                              un-conciousness - imagine it behind you.. you put it there since you know it but don't want to face it right now
                              collective sub-conciousness - as it relates with everyone else
                              super-un-consciousness (dreams, seeing Deities etc)
                              super-wakeful-consciousness (Deities disappear just like dreams disappear then you wake up)
                              there's many more... as you know probably through your transpersonal training (I've had no training, so I'm just writing from experience)

                              Here's now the key to work with all this stuff... instead or in-addition to working with Chakra's... look towards all of these different aspects of your consciousness energetically... know that the stories on each are really irrelevant... it's a waste of time and energy to find out why you got hurt, or why you did this... it's enough to just acknowledge ahh there is some "human pain" there is some "human anger" there is this or that... then just give it what it needs... perhaps it needs compassion... you find you are not able to give that, inquire what you need to do to be able to do that... if you can't, then just imagine "you are giving yourself what you need to make it through this... even though YOU DO NOT KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU NEED... just by imagingin giving yourself what you need without knowing what it is... it will be enough!"

                              Some key on sub-consciousness.. I found as I worked more and more on the sub-consciousness that I began to become aware of the very nature and essence of how sub-consciousness was constructed and why.. as I began to realize this I was filled with compassion... LOVE begin to outpour from my heart down into my sub-conscious... no longer do I tear about such things... it's just beauty... if it's much I just feel my heart chakra spinning faster or heart beats faster... I saw the dark filrty waters of my sub-consciousness light up as sweet clear waters... and as I saw this I saw it surrounded and being punctured by the collective sub-consciousness around it... and I realized that there is a connection the sub-consciousness shared/s with the collective... I was again filled with compassion and LOVE knowing the nature of this....

                              I've shared with you some of my techniques... and after all of this... I always wondered why the Buddhists are all into "Compassion"... I mean I always said to myself what the hell is up with that? Since as I went deep, I saw even death and killing and rape as happening without no differentiation in my consciousness... I saw that whatever we call Divine cared no less if I lived or died... so what is all this Buddha Compassion about?

                              I know now the "Perfect Compassion" is about realizing the nature of one's own Self... about how in all different aspects/dimensions of our consciousness we have caused "Suffering" to ourself due to our mis-understanding (ignorance). Knowing this, we again retain our-Self... and developing Perfect Compassion is the true-nature of Self-Knowledge

                              I also relate with you regarding the 1st/2nd/3rd chakra's. The higher up are a lot easier in terms of "issues"... however it takes a lot more energy to be able to get to higher ups and find their true powers. the 1st/2nd/3rd are dealing with a lot of very human issues... for example things I'm going to have to face next week with learning and doing Sales... more and more stepping out of any culture/dogma/religion/path... walking out of my castle and living out in the midst of the Wild Chaotic Ocean... Wild Bears and Lions... embracing this and working on my fears that want to hold back "limiting beliefs and patterns"

                              I pray for Grace for all as we all have our own suffering
                              I pray for that Grace to Awaken within us all before we fall off any cliffs
                              I pray for that Grace to lift us up soaring the sky of alive-ness
                              LOVE to ALL




                          • Hi Allan,

                            Thanks for your response. Regarding the defragmentation, I do very much relate to this as well. When I make changes that are more like adjustments i.e. defragmentations, what happens is that I also do feel sometimes very much weak afterwards. I've realized the reason for this is that in the process I opened myself up to living more fully-embodied... the container for energy is larger and the amount of energy I used to carry with me is just not enough... I drink lots of water, take it easy, try different ways to raise my energy... if it's an intense session it can take 3 to 5 days sometimes to energize myself back into the new container.

                            What I was referring to was when the entire container is being changed to something new... at that point it's almost like the physical body is just not compatible anymore, and the only way to make the adjustment is to shut it off fully... i.e. die but it's very peaceful since I know exactly what is happening. It's more like I just noticed that was what was happening after I made the adjustments to my physical body and I just watched the process unfold.. I let it sit in that death state for as long as it needed until it naturally rose back to life.

                            p.s. I'm a computer geek, linux/unix/networking et all so computer terminology is a very good way to try to conceptualize things... it reminds me of how in Hinduism they have developed such an amazing what sometimes seems like comic book characters with super hero stories and illustrate these phenomena ... when we work with the symbols things happen though it doesn't make sense

                            like I recall when I practiced Hinduism, I did certain puja practices to Ganesha, and all of a sudden these forces began waking up within me... Ganesha was a symbol, so was the puja a preparation to put me in a certain mind-set where these things would happen... it makes no sense sometimes but it works.
                            • Sweet Ramiel: I bow to you and thank you for the comprehensive description of your process for my benefit, and the benefit of all who read here. You have helped to expand my understanding of the kundalini Shakti process and I will work with the practices you suggest to expand further.

                              I will say that in my life to this point I have never experienced what one could classify as "mystical" (metaphysical) experiences, i.e.: visions, voices, levitations (..:O)), etc. as many who experience kundalini awakening describe. I am from a Christian Evangelical background (my late father was a Pentecostal minister) and witnessed, as a child: "speaking in tongues", "falling down in the spirit", (putative) "healings" -- all the Benny Hinn stuff -- but never experienced them first hand (nor wished to!). As I stated in my previous post, my process seems tro be primarily physical and energetic. My kundalini awakening was tripped during a Breathwork session 4 years ago, when an initiated tantrika sat behind me, holding me very close and I experienced the uncoiling of the serpent in my sacrum and the rush of energy up my spine and out the top of my head. Since then I have worked on a weekly basis raising erotic trance energy in couplings with various partners who are all involved in this "Path of the Heart", as our treacher calls it. I checked with this teacher -- who is the root transmitter and guide for us, whose path is very much mystical / metaphysical, rather than vibrationally energetic -- about the manifestations of Shakti and he assured that the unfolding can vary greatly from practitioner to practitioner, in effect and revelation.

                              Anything you might add on this point would be greatly appreciated.

                              Namaste,

                              Allan

                              • Dear Allan,

                                Regarding the metaphysical side of experiences. I was raised a Catholic in a Muslim country. When I was 10 years old we migrated to USA. At 15 I began meditation; at that time I would sit for 5 to 7 hours in our balcony facing this small mountain. I had no teacher, but I was sick of all the written beliefs and I wanted direct knowledge. Being raised Christian, I realized that going towards the "good"/Christ might be too difficult as I am not-pure, so I rationalized that going towards "evil"/Satan would be easier journey, and that the closer I am to "pure evil" I will be next to "pure good". So that's how I started; I closed my eyes and went looking for pure evil/Satan. At that moment my body died, I went to this infinite black spaciousness. It seemed like my soul was headed away. I really felt I would not return to body. All of a sudden I saw a figure that looked like Christ come and raise his arms as I got thrown back into my body. What followed from my meditations was that I began becoming familiar with my astral body and began to align it with my physical body. My mind's eye began to open and I started being able to look under neath the soil of the mountain and see the beings beneath it. I began experiencing many mystical beings like Gnomes, Cubies... it lead up to my first experience with a Dakini which had forceful sex with me... I had the most amazing orgasm throughout my entire body, and meanwhile I was held down and couldn't move my body... I saw her at that time as an insane woman who was doing this to me. Out of my fear and having no context for all the experiences I prayed on a daily basis for all these experiences to be taken away from me. It wasn't till later when I was 18 and had my own apartment, after I broke up with a long term girl friend that I first woke up and saw the blue faced Goddess watching over me... I thought to myself, I've gone full crazy now, and I had intended to check myself into an asylum... as prior to this I was having way too many experiences. The day after the experience with the blue faced Goddess I met my first teacher, a short south-indian man who had lived for many years in the jungles and himalayas... he was trained under many secret cults, tantrics, aghoris, and many others. He had just a few changes of cloths, just two plates and couple of pots for cooking what he bought from the market that day. He worked as a consultant on a H1-B visa to some big company. He had one laptop, one cell phone, and one regular phone. he had basically nothing but bare bare essentials, no sofa, no chairs, no carpets, just white walls and bare carpeted apartment floor. Sometimes he would sit in meditation for 3 days straight without food... sometimes while I was sitting with him, he would begin talking out loud as if he is talking inwardly but didn't notice he was speaking out loud to some beings which I couldn't see... sometimes he would all of a sudden be bowing to someone in front of him which I couldn't see... it appeared that he had daily visitors that I couldn't see.

                                So he began the process of talking to me about 6 hours a day. He would cook for me everyday and suggested that his cooking was specifically good for meditation and that I should not eat anything else. He told me stories about the many mystics he met, about the Aghori's that he saw take dead flesh and convert it into a banana which was given to him. About the many mystics who have dropped their physical bodies but still reside in certain jungles and they have been around for long time, hundreds of years. He suggested many times for me to go to India with me and he would introduce me to them... and told me that because of him they would talk to me. Then the process of him going through my ego began. On a daily basis he was triggering my ego, pushing my buttons. He would get me to the point of literally wanting to kill him, or going into insanity which I found to be the greatest bliss. He is an Avadhut, and the training of insanity was very important as passed through his Guru... I went through many lessons with him.

                                Point being, the real kundalini journey for me began with him. He had me sit across from him as he looked above my head, he was looking probably about 6 feet above my head... so if he was focusing on a chakra, it would be above the 7th for sure. He began rising my kundalini and I entered this complete white world.... everything disappeared... my vision became 2D, then all colors faded into white and there was just a gray outline of everything... even that disappeared and we entered what he called the astral plane. He said at this time that my kundalini was raised successfully up to my 5th chakra in full, and he began to tear... I asked him why is he tearing... he said that he was so happy that he has met a student that could go this far on our first experience, that he was so happy and grateful... after all of his rigidness I was thinking to myself nah, that can't be a real emotion from him... he must just have something in his eyes :-)

                                He began teaching me prana yama practices. The "basti" fire breath. He explained how my intention needs to be violent like killing anyone anything, and as I began doing these breaths, there was another student of his in the room. The student remarked that he was amazed as he began feeling waves of intense heat rising from my body. Then that student tried to do the same thing, and our teacher stopped him and said that it would be dangerous for him at this time. There was great significance taught about the the Sushumna... about being able to keep both nostrils clear to breath easily and both nostrils having the same level of open-ness for taking breath in and out.... without the Sushumna balanced and open he suggested our practices would make us mad. Later I learned the Nadi Shodahana Pranayama (alternate nostril breathing). There was a ratio to our breaths, I believe it was 4 seconds on the in breath through the left nostril, holding it in for 12 seconds, and breathing out for 8.

                                Leading the prana yama practices, my body began feeling lighter each day, I began to have so much energy that I was no longer sleeping at all. I began not eating food at all, I was just drinking water. Sometimes at night when the lights were off and I was looking for something my hands would light up like light bulbs... so literally physical light was coming from my body. I began being able to lift things that there was no way for me to lift, like being able to lift a truck from the back... I could run and jump much higher than usual and my heart/breath would not tire... a few times I ran up and down a hill and I had no sweat or heart beat variation. The process continued and my body began turning what I could perceive as clear white. A regular friend came to visit me during that time, and she told me that my body looked green to her at that time. I was fully celibate, no masturbation, no ejaculation, no erection, no thinking of sex or ANY desire, no dreaming or any unconscious play. It was a non-attachment practiced to the level that if I felt tired I would not sleep, if I was hungry I would not eat, if I was in pain while sitting I would sit in the pain until I was comfortable with the pain... it was in a way a very violent way of learning detachment and later progressing to non-attachment. I had to always maintain the kundalini stayed at 3rd or above chakra's as well.

                                I had a closet that I would sit inside for meditation. As I would sit, I would notice my kundalini was up to 3rd charka. Then I would bow to all my teachers, and as I would raise my body up from the bow, I would see that kundalni had raised to the heart... I would begin with prana yama, and then move onto mantra. The energy would build up so much that often I had the feeling that if I moved my small finger the walls around my apartment from shatter. I was later told by my sister who often visited me and I would go into my closet that every time I would go to my closet, at some point the electrical power for the apartment would go out for at least 3 minutes... fax machines, computers, and tv would all be rebooting... clocks had to get reset. If I start writing about all the experiences and beings that I met in meditation I would never end typing.

                                The miracle expereinced continued to deepen. When it was raining outside, I would open my apartment door and that instant the rain would stop. As soon as I would get to my car, sit inside, and close the door, the rain would start that instant. I would get to the office at work, open the door and rain stops. As soon as I would walk into the office, close the door, the rain would start. It was like this every single day. It would be raining and I would look up at the cloudy sky and I would think to myself, I wish I could see the clear blue sky... I look back up I would see a big opening. This phenomena continued... I began to hear audibly the thoughts of others... I began testing myself by telling people exactly what they were thinking, or had friends to play back songs in their head and I would tell them the words to the song... and some were songs I had never heard before. One time I realized my sister wanted to go out to a see a movie, I told her the name of the movie... and took her out to the theaters. On our way there, I realized she wanted a hot chocolate from a local start bucks. We walked into the startbucks which had two lines, one to each cash register going outside of the shop. Once our turn got up, I thought to myself, I've spent a lot of money, but that's ok, she's my sister and I haven't taken her anywhere. When the cash register guy punched in our order, he told us the register machine froze. He tried to turn it on and off and it wouldn't work. He then waited for the other register next to him to free up, and began to punch our order on that one, and that register also froze (stopped working)! He said we get our drinks for free, and he yelled to everyone (at least 30 customers in line) that all drinks are free. As soon as we stepped away and next person walked in, both registers began to work. I made sure to tip him what our total would have been and more.

                                I've always been surprised about the miracle experiences that are happening. Many have happened and still do, not as much like before as my life just has a different focus right now.. but they still do happen.

                                .... so to bring some of this home...

                                I believe that if anyone commits his life to sadhana, intense practices like Mantra and Prana Yama along with a good system like Raja Yoga... and does this continuously for some years... every single day doing hours of meditation in the morning and hours at night... there is NO WAY not to have many experiences and openings.

                                .... the next thing is... I also observe at least to me, that when my thoughts are still, being is still, the kundalini naturally rises...
                                every single day, after my daily work is done, after we have put the kids to bed, I just walk back to the living room and I notice I'm back into a very deep meditative state... it's just a natural state... and once the daily things are done, that's what I go back to

                                ... I still have much further to go in this journey, I know this...

                                I did all these practices for a 3 year period. Finally in 2004 one day I woke up and cleaned up my apartment. I had a feeling to turn all the spiritual books I had cover facing out... so I could see the photos of all the masters looking at me. That day when I came home with my friend was when the Nirvikalpa Samadhi happened. It was after this experience that the gates opened and all this trauma processing began. Later after this I joined a Sufi path. In between I had also been taught Native American practices for a year, and had visited with many others Masters... some I would run into at random places... like I ran into Ammaji (www.amma.org) at the San Francisco air port randomly! I would run into such people at places like coffee shops. The Sufi training was what really helped me ground back. The Shaikh at the Sufi path I was in after 2 years when I was leaving the path told me that if I left that path, he predicted that I would be a Master of another path. I have no such feelings and still feel I have much growing up and maturing to do.

                                So I began my journey as the "energy mastery" and at some point the "spirituality" began when the Nirvikalpa Samadhi in 2004... and following that the "therapy" process started to help me be a full functioning human being as a father, lover, entrepreneur etc. And of most recent I'm beginning to go through a whole new stage of consciousness where Essence has become cognizant of itself as Essence... and while this is happening, all the other states of conciousness in a transparent way are happening at once... the body/mind is there while essence is aware of itself... so the body/mind pose questions and Essence is responding. I have no idea where this is going... but I've begun having Shamanic vivid dreams again... last night was the this gigantic brown Bear the size of a whale... it came after me to kill me... I was shooting at it, but I'm pretty sure it killed me, then I woke up. I had these Shamanic dreams as the Bear flying through the air the week before the Nirvikalpa experience.

                                At this point, I do have two teachers who are more like friends who have gone the path, and assist me when I need help. But certainly the Guru is Essence itself.

                                • What a wondrous journey you are on, Ramiel! Thanks so very much for sharing it here.

                                  I tried both your recommended 'Mother Love" and Lover Love" visualizations this morning during my meditation session and found them to be very profound and effective, with much shaking and some crying as I switched roles until I settled into deep heart connection. I will be adding these practices to my routine going forward and passing them on to others. My deepest gratitude to you for them.

                                  Blessings,

                                  Allan
                        • Yes, the 8/9 chakra is in the center of the head, at the junction of the Ajña and Sahasrara. In my experience they are triggered by K rising after K opens Sahasrara.

                          I have talked with several teachers about "upper" chakras. I am told they are a reflection of the 7 in the koshas. However, I have not experienced them and anything I would add would only be from conjecture and not personal knowledge. While I enjoy conjecture and study, I feel that actualization and experience are more important.

                          When working with K and moving up the chakras, I have, on occasion, noticed a feeling of separation. The physical kosha simply becomes unimportant. I don't think of it as death or shutting down. Rather, "it" does its thing while "I" do mine.

                          IMO the true secrets of Tantra can never be written because the words you use and the words I use may not make sense to anyone else. Such experiences are beyond words. It's not that people won't write about them, it's that they can't.

                          Namaste!
      • Adesh!

        This is what I appreciate mostly in you Shambhalnathji; you are sceptic with respect and don't get carried away with dogmas. I will love to answer your true questions.

        Kundalini shakti is not something that needs nothing but a Guru or a God to get awakened! It is the natural central-nervous-system root energy. Kundalini is always working in one-fourth of its absolute capacity. That much is enough to maintain all living work-outs; that much strong it is! When it works in full it creates the state of samadhi in brain. There are many kinds of samadhis as there are many kinds of Kundalini work-outs either through practice or through other effects as both conditioned as well as unconditioned reflexes. Kundalini can have a sudden gush effecting in a state nearest to samadhi or just laya-samadhi for certain period of time in cases like:

        1. After awakening from sleep with the first stepping on bare ground on bare foot.
        2. With first morning urination / clearing bowels.
        3. With a sudden surprise or shock.
        4. With remembrance of an intense experience.
        5. With height of emotional break out.
        5. Out of terrible fear.
        6. In height of anger.
        7. After a narrow escape.
        8. After recovery from a long ailment.
        9. In cases of hyper self-hypnosis including all holy visualisations and devotional practices.
        10. In out-breaking love experience.
        11. After coming to a judgment after a prolonged and hard thought process.
        12. In prolonged sexual intercourse.

        But samadhis or Kundalini awakening in these cases don't have any retentivity over a little period of time. The Yogic process of practising Kundalini through cleansing the nadis and chakras in the classical way enables a sadhaka not to loose the growing motion of the energy day by day. It is laborious as well as slow in general. Any quick shot process is good for them who are settled in the regular practice but can be physiologically as well as psychologically harmful for novice people. The body needs slow and steady seasoning in a yogic journey to give stable effects.

        Sexual energy being the primordial energy of life, the Kundalini Shakti is the other form of it. In every sexual orgasm Kundalini energy rushes to head plexus, of course beyond ajna chakra even for a fraction of a time effecting in a momental voidness in the mind of the person concerned with. Prolonged orgasm can prolong the time of the voidness. It is a kind of laya-samadhi known as kama-samadhi. Its effect can pull a person into a blissful state for a day to a week in maxim but nothing more.

        Orthodox tantric masters on one hand going through the classical practice make it too difficult to convince practitioners into practice. They make so many stories about details that a practitioner would get carried away by the heavy duty thought of it and give up practice thinking it to be near to impossible. Some of these old school masters also make it so unique for them that they can carry on their holistic exploitation on others to carry on their business well. On the other hand, neo-tantrikas to get stunning results use basic emotions to go to quick effects which are never lasting and can damage the stability of body and mind of practitioners as well. This is also a kind of effect marketing in matters of creating emotional shocks through self-hypnosis or sex to lead to a temporary laya-samadhi effect. The practitioners of this kind can go through exactly such distortions of body-mind as the lady who practiced with Ananth. I have seen innumerable similar cases in Osho commune in my last five year researches on neo-tantric styles and their effects rendered by Osho. On the contrary, those who are older disciples of Osho and practiced his neo-tantras for prolonged time, at least 12-15 years have achieved states similar to Zen realisers, but they cannot explain how they reached this state. In matters of sex as a technique of neo-tantra, it can also give better effects if partners practice it regularly for prolonged time periods over a year or two. In Indian villages, most of the couples practice sex-tantra in between married couples as regular meditation till they wear off the sexual desire and enter spiritual experiences through it. There are many respected sex-gurus all over the village India who stress on marital respect for a restrained prolonged pleasure practice to reach samadhis. These gurus are known as 'kulagurus' in general.

        Most of the gurus who go out marketing depend upon either quick effects to charm the clients or hard-core mysticism to become a holy alien to people to enjoy domination over others. It is true that most of them do not know the actual techniques to awaken Kundalini and day by day increase the flow of it towards higher chakras passing through different samadhis, cleansing the nadis and chakras. In my experience with Western disciples, it takes minimum three years to cleanse their nadis and chakras with regular practice of Kundalini to make the process stable. For Indians, especially villagers, it takes not more than a year. I am working with a house of twenty members of regular practitioners, few Indians and mostly Westerners, for last twelve years. One of my best Western students reaching even the Guru-nadi, failed to keep up practice after five years of regular practice, so much negative impulses were already stored in his nadis and chakras. Without the bindu-lock, it is also almost impossible for men to retain higher yogic siddhis. Whereas for women, Kundalini practice gives immense effect both quick and strong till the heart chakra, after that it generally becomes difficult for them to proceed further. For men, it takes time to go up, but if they reach above heart chakra, it becomes easier for them to go through the upper chakras. There are various subconscious reasons that effect upon the practice of Kundalini and so it is immensely important for Tantra practitioners to lead a balanced and regulated life through strictness of disciplines of restrained pleasures.

        Thank you all for the discussion. Thank you Maya, for inviting me into this discussion. But remember, it is not possible for a Guru to know everything about every circumstance, though it is possible to apply experiential knowledge to dip into others’ experiences with focused awareness.
        • Unsu...
           
          Thank you for your balanced post Kulavadhuta.
          Often I find in these tribe discussions a strong fight of sorts between neo-tantrics and "other" tantrics, I myself being a little bit of a sceptic of neo-tantrics in every nook and alley of San Francisco!
          So your post served to create and accept a more balanced view.
  • Hello,
    I have just joined this tribe.
    I would say, Ananth, that you did do something that your conscience and intuition advised you against.
    That because this client was sexually attractive to you, you went against what you knew to be the right thing to do.
    This you can take responsibility for.
    I believe she blamed you, not because she awakened but because she knew deep down that you had violated your oath
    of what was right to do.
    The rest is called "self concern"
    What do others think of me?
    What have I done?
    Guilt is a way of avoiding feelings.
    If I were you I would look deeply at yourself and what you are offering to the world.
    Sexual healing in the hands of someone who pushes forward to offer it because of a personal attraction is not really offering sexual healing at all.
    It is a very unknown and mysterious path to offer such healing.
    I am not blaming you, Ananth, for this mis-step.
    Because you asked for help, I am offering some "touch love" to you.
    Peace, Julie
  • How do you truly know that the upheaval and chaos weren't necessary for her own spiritual evolution? Is it for you to say that she needed to learn certain lessons in life to move to the next level, or to embrace the energy you had given her? The truth is that in life there is always change, some fear it, run from it and deny it. Yet that doesn't change its necessity. When megawatts of chi cycle through a person, if they haven't prepared for it, everything in life will domino into that preparation. The highest ecstasies will lead to the most cataclysmic of downfalls. If she is smart, the great heights will inspire her to find ways of reaching the states over and over until it becomes second nature. You gave her the tools, now she must find ways to adapt and work with them. It was her choice and in that, you really haven't any need to feel guilty. I haven't read through all of the responses, just wanted to add my 2 cents.