Osho's view on sexuality

topic posted Tue, July 15, 2008 - 7:02 AM by  Mark
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I'd like to share a thread I liked,
didn't have this text in my book collection...

osho.tribe.net/thread/727...36dba1cd1b4

ML.
posted by:
Mark
Canada
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    Re: Osho's view on rolls royce

    Thu, September 25, 2008 - 4:26 PM
    I don't know Osho.. although I have heard of him.

    I heard that there was alot of controversy about him.. something about having tons of wealth..like having a large collection of rolls royce.

    To me, that sounds similar to the wealths of some evangelist preachers..

    My comments may sound inflamatory, so let me clarify, that is not my intention.. just want to understand how wealth and spirituality are related in some folks..

    Sex and money are often associated.. so there is some relevancy to this comment withing a Osho and sexuality talk..

    cheers..
    • Re: Osho's view on rolls royce

      Tue, September 30, 2008 - 11:49 PM
      I was a disciple of his for 9 1/2 years. I always felt the Rolls Royces were a big joke he was playing on everyone. A lot of what Osho did was world theater and was quite funny.
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        offline 3

        Re: Osho's view on rolls royce

        Fri, October 3, 2008 - 2:50 PM
        <<I always felt the Rolls Royces were a big joke he was playing on everyone>>

        so would you mind spelling the joke?

        I can hear a thought inside of me saying "if someone has to explain it, you aren't going to get it".. but I'd like to know anyway.

        In what context would that joke function? was he going for the juxtaposition of the ascetic life or something?
        • Re: Osho's view on rolls royce

          Fri, October 17, 2008 - 1:19 AM
          I remember a bumper sticker they used to sell at the ranch.

          Jesus Saves
          Moses Invests
          Bhagwan Spends

          The joke was, It's all absurd. Why would a spiritual guru have 91 rolles? Why would anyone have 91 rolles? It's just silly. Plus it got a lot of press and lot's of attention. Good marketing.
          • Re: Osho's view on rolls royce

            Fri, October 17, 2008 - 2:39 AM
            Good marketing indeed.

            Early on, I believe Osho (aka Bhagwan Shri Rajneesh) had genuine insights, and Yogic siddhis (paranormal powers) indicating a high level of spiritual development. Sadly it seems he was totally corrupted by the fame and fortune - by the end of his life, he was a pretty pathetic figure, paranoid, withdrawn, addicted to massive doses of Valium and nitrous oxide. In the heyday in Oregon, the organization was utterly corrupt, taking in boatloads of money while committing serious crimes, including murder, poisoning, first-degree assault, burglary, arson, wiretapping, and serial sexual abuse.. Many of these assaults were directed at his own followers. He became increasingly megalomaniacal, equating himself with God, Buddha, and the Messiah, even while his physical and mental health continued to deteriorate. The Rolls Royces (not gifts, but purchases) and the jewels and all the other excesses were the sick indulgences of a very sick man. I know many very wonderful human beings were taken in by this deception, but its really time to let it go. The "Osho" of the big cult was a fraud, plain and simple. Though I do think some of his early writings have merit, in the later years he was a complete disgrace, to himself and to his message. Walk away. Look elsewhere. There's nothing here that will help you on the way.
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Osho's view on rolls royce

              Fri, October 17, 2008 - 2:09 PM
              i read the book of secrets by osho and it gave me a lot of insights.
              From what I know, he never really contradicted what he wrote and taught about tantra ...
              which explains why it was okay for him to have rollees.
              yeah, it sounds sick when you compare him to his peers... but...

              Were you actually there, to witness that the
              "organization was utterly corrupt, taking in boatloads of money while committing serious crimes, including murder, poisoning, first-degree assault, burglary, arson, wiretapping, and serial sexual abuse" ?

              and could you say osho himself was responsible for all that?

              I thought that the man just didn't like how this guy became a rockstar and took him down CIA style.

              No, i dont worship the guy. But A lot of what he said makes sense to me... and this is way after all the fiasco.

            • Re: Osho's view on rolls royce

              Tue, October 21, 2008 - 6:05 AM
              I once met the head of his personal guard while at a shaman training workshop. She confirmed everything you said Torrey and added that in her opinion Bhagwan was not enlightened but was very psychically powerful.
              • Re: Osho's view on rolls royce

                Wed, October 22, 2008 - 5:14 AM
                Brian,
                Yes, that's my sense as well. Westerners have been far too easily dazzled by charismatic Gurus who can do magic tricks. There have been many more besides Osho, and it seems new ones are always coming along. None of these powers signify Enlightenment. As the video link advises, caveat emptor - let the buyer beware. When large sums of money are changing hands, be especially cautious. Real Gurus do not care about fame or fortune, they do not need to live like Maharajas, or all these things that are only the passing show. If you have the blessing in your lifetime to meet a REAL Sat Guru, you will know that despite all the smoke and mirrors of the fakers, this is a genuine and deeply precious thing.

                I hope that ultimately Rajneesh will be remembered for his writings on philosophy and religion, not his posing as a Guru, or the many scandals associated with the cult. For one of the previous posters, I do not have knowledge - nor personally believe - that he was directly behind the worst activities at Rajneeshpuram. Nonetheless, they happened under his watch. He was the resident Guru of the ashram. Even if he was too wasted on Nitrous and pills to care, he was still involved and bore part of the responsibility. His acquisition of 93 Rolls-Royce's was not worth the cost to his followers - their faith, their money, their hard work and devotion - to support something that was basically a deception.

                He was a Philosophy professor with a greater than average insight into his subject matter, and had a gift for speaking and writing about it well. He was never an "enlightened master", much less a "living Buddha". But he had the personal ambition - and charisma - to try to get people to follow him, and power, as the saying goes, corrupts. He should have stuck to writing books. Some of the books, I feel, in spite of the scandals, are really pretty good and will endure. And whatever its faults, the movement was a nexus for a lot of remarkable people to get together, and genuine spiritual growth DID happen. It didn't happen because of Osho - but he did provide the environment, with the ashrams, and a supportive context. It was the sannyasins that held, and did, the magic.
      • Re: Osho's view on rolls royce

        Mon, October 13, 2008 - 10:44 AM
        The way I heard it...he was given one Rolls by a follower, and then other wealthy followers all started doing the same...before he knew it, he had a fleet of them.... Or...something like that.... The point is...at least according to what I've read...that he received them as gifts.
        • Re: Osho's view on rolls royce

          Thu, October 16, 2008 - 10:12 AM
          350ppm osho wants to fuck with all our preconceptions - it took me a long time to geddit and i think yes to the pimp like anotha brotha say so well pimp rollin in a roller on a private road wearing diamond studded rolex take that its post modern
    • Re: Osho's view on rolls royce

      Sat, August 22, 2009 - 7:11 AM
      osho is a enlightened master and we ordinary people disscussing about him .a enlightened person knows what is right or wrong with his awareness. we are judging him with our social conditinings and unawreness. to judge a enlightened master you should we enlightened. my own experince is that when you attained conciousnees of a playfull child or krishna conciousness through spiritual practise life becomes a leela and a game and osho was just playing with rolls royeces cars. he was always talking about abundance thats why he collected so many cars. he never liked poverty .he wanted that everybody in the world should be rich like him and attain krishna conciousness so life becomes a game or a leela. he was a watcher on the hill. and we are just watching from our unawareness. before judging anybody we should think many times. we people destroyed him and his commune in oregaon without thinking. it is a great loss for humanity.
  • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

    Fri, October 17, 2008 - 8:17 PM
    This is true that Tantra speaks so and Osho repeats it in his style, in his language. It is profound. But Tantra says more. Tantra says:

    "Until and unless you have reached the state of awareness don't try it, you will end up in hell.
    To reach the state of blissful awareness in sex, you need to reach blissful awareness first because it is like rowing a boat in midst of a typhoon. It is like petting a tiger. It is like taming a snake. It is like crossing a razor's edge bridge over the river of hell, in the thundering moonless night chased by five ghosts. When your jiva nature has turned to the Shiva nature it is the time to practice the union. Or, dedicate unconditionally to the exalted Guru; by His grace You can go to the other shore." -- Kaulavali.

    Now the question is was Osho a Guru in the sense of the real term?
    Did he train up disciples with individual care?
    Did he at all make a generation to support his 'profound' teachings?
    Did Osho himself practice that?
    Did you Mark yourself practiced it and accomplished in what Osho says and you appreciate?
    Do you know anyone who has accomplished in it from Osho's teachings and train ups?

    Without locking semen and stopping the formation of spermatozoa in the prostate gland by the practice of Vajroli a prolonged and aware sex can not happen. The moment of orgasm is so slow that to stretch it one needs a background practice of stretching time in the moment which is 1 second divided by 49 parts. To learn to stretch time you need to practice kundalini completing the full awakening of the six chakras by locks and breathing controls.

    All teachings are great till they prove in practical. Osho is profound in his books; hopeless in his generations! So, any propaganda regarding his teaching creates a disharmony in a discussion board where practicality is claimed.


    • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

      Fri, October 17, 2008 - 10:52 PM
      Kula...

      Tantra says nothing...although it speaks to any who listen.
      Tantra is not one person who talks. Not Osho. Not me. Not you.
      People who are Tantrics can talk. And write. But they speak as Tantrics. They represent their particular tradition(s). They do not speak "for" Tantra.

      Anybody who says, "According to Tantra..." is wrong, although they may be right in talking about what a Tantric has said or writte.
      Anybody who says they are speaking for Tantra is lying, or confused, or lost in egotism.

      The Tantras are various books, many of which contradict each other or deal with subjects not covered in other books collectively known as The Tantras. So, it certainly could be right to say that "According to X's interpretation, The Tantras speak on such and such."

      And it certainly is accurate to say that Osho interpreted some Tantric concepts and presented them in his own style, a style that appealed to meany.

      But nobody speaks for all of Tantra even though Tantra may speak to them.
      Claiming that "Tantra says X" is false. Claiming to speak for Tantra is false.

      And yet, Tantra does speak to all who will only listen.

      Namaste!
      • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

        Sat, October 18, 2008 - 10:56 PM
        Adesh Sham,

        This is what I do not agree with. This is what can be Neo-Tantra but not Tantra as observed in the traditional Tantrik world in India from where the subject evolved at all. Truth can have view points in philosophy but not in science. Science is what it is not how I think it is. Tantra in its pure tradition is termed as Vijnanavada by Nagarjuna Himself in the first historical book of Tantra known as Guhyasamaja. Prior to this, what you describe as tantric viewpoint and not Tantra was predominant in the Tirthikas who called it philosophically as Rahasya (Mysticism) and Kalpa (Conception) as practice. By the very term of its philosophy, you understand that there is enough scope to put viewpoints regarding Mysticism as well as conception, which is the practice, can differ from person to person. If you are a Tirthika, which seems to be again and again to me (remember I asked you long back about your lineage whether it is the Rahasya-Kalpa lineage or Tantra lineage), you have received your idea from your tradition which can in modern era use of the term Tantra for Rahasya-Kalpa, but is not Tantra as an institutionalised school. If you do not accept this reality of Indian history and call Tantra as viewpoints, I am really sorry that the premises of discussion between us is difficult. Because you follow the belief system of Tantra while I follow Tantra as institution which has its own particular code and procedure in authentic texts.

        Still I will like to elaborate on this point for information to all who speak on the system of Tantra. This I am not doing to get ego satisfied in contradiction with people who have never grown in pure tantric culture. I know it is impossible for them to give up their ego-struck ideation about anything they like to establish. Tantra is not a floating area or a pedestal in the hyde park for people to go on putting ideas and opinions. Tantra as a term holds everything but does not agree with all procedures and that is why it is called Tantra, not anything else. My Masters burdened me with the responsibility of clarifying the basic structure of Tantra to the people concerned because the basic structure of Tantra is really lost to people due to over-individualistic approaches on the subject. The greatest scholars and authorities of academic Tantra in India do not accept all books written in the name of Tantra as Tantra texts. There is a specific science within museology to ascertain authenticity of tantric texts following the language and practice structure of the basic coded and lineage-registered scriptures. Being one of the specialists in India who ascertain texts and reject counterfeits, I with confidence not ego, with responsibility and not floating ideas, assuring this matter. You can get this checked by the Indian systems of configuring real texts. With profound knowledge of Sanskrit and in open national debates, Indian modern scholars together with traditional pundits assert a text and it takes long serious procedure. I am sorry to say, Tantra is not democracy! Neither consumerism open to others' choices. It is a four square institutionalised, coded reality. Those who don't accept it, they can follow their own tracks but not in the name of Tantra. Though no tantric master will go to the court to stop people interpreting Tantra. Those who practice it in and through, they know where are the chances of personal stylisation in Tantra and where it is a scripture and a stricture too.

        The matter of ego and confidence looks alike, but not works as the same. Ego tries to prove individual point of view whereas confidence proves the Truth free from individual stylisations. You may say that anything spoken or expressed will get through individual stylisation by any means and how in that point ego-centric assertion and confident assertions can be differentiated. This is the point where a true tantrika will check out from the particular expression along the tantric psycho-psychic code of the "thirty-three", which state of practice and accomplishment the person speaking is belonging to. The truth of Tantra being Void (Shivasamhita), or in a different terminology, Dual-Nondual Equanimity (Shivasutra), the subject has a particular checking point and those who master that are known as masters. Tantric practitioners and tantric masters do not hold same understanding because the masters go through other masters in a strict train-up to become a master, see Samayachara.

        This is what in a back discussion on the subject, I humbly wanted to know the viewpoint of Neo-Tantra. Neo-Tantra seems to be a school of scattered intellectuals as well as scattered practitioners who, being unable to find the concise ideal structure of Tantra following their researches in areas where Tantra never evolved, tried to bring out the techniques hidden behind the traditional orthodox structure of Tantra as a proved science, in a manner that suits their democratic rights and marketing policies following consumerism. It sells well. Osho, I have full respect for his great intellectual viewpoints, very appealing to the world of democratic consumerism, used Tantra in lectures as his last resort for popularity. Osho was an ordinary initiate who entered the core world of Tantra through his Guru Baba Pagolnath Aghori (see his book "My Golden Childhood"). Baba Pagolnath Aghori is one of my elder Guru-brothers through my second Guru Baba Ramnath Aghori. Remember your Paramaguru Pagla Baba of Ranchi was also one of the disciples of Baba Ramnath Aghori as well as disciple of Thakur Kalachand Avadhut from Bangladesh. I am connected to Thakur Kalachand Avadhut's lineage also. I was present in the 64 yoginis' mahachakradishthana historical celebration in Kolkata in 1973, held in Kalighat temple to work out on the specific structure of Tantra when Osho as Acharya Rajneesh was present there, and debated with Baba Ramnath Aghori on this issue of what we are discussing today. He was silenced by Baba Ramnath Aghori and all other indigenous authorities of Indian orthodox Tantric world. This is why Acharya Rajneesh was not entitled in the lineage practices by Baba Ramnath Aghori. This is why his lectures are profound, but practices did not prove in his generations any tantric accomplishment. Osho being one of the pioneers of Neo-Tantra, I appreciate his trial to bring out Tantra from the orthodox clutches but that is what massacre it did to the ideal structure of Tantra.

        These days I very much do not participate in tribe discussions, the only reason being people are preconceived with individual notions which do not agree with the subject matter or ideal structure of the subject. It shows that people are really interested and there are high researchers in the field of Tantra like you whom I respect for clarity of thought, but cannot always agree with along the grammatical authenticities that I am, among others, chosen to carry by greatest lineage masters of India. Neo-Tantra will take another century to decide the basic structure through a lot of trial and error methods passing through high intellectual speculations. In India, in my Gurukul, I teach with promise of accomplishments the strict structure of Tantra to disciples, both Indian and Western, open to any practical challenge for the aid of real researchers.

        Recently Indian national congress of academic Tantra is going to happen in January 2009 in Hydrabad, sponsored by most respected universities, academic institutions, and archaeological survey board to assert the ideal structure of Tantra. They will be published in future. I am one of the three academic heads chosen to arbitrate in this board. Sham, a researcher like you should experience these authentic seminars and academic assertions through symposium debates under the scrutiny of the Tantra world authentics of India, both scholars and practitioners. It will take long time for Americans to decide Tantra as a science and not a pedestal to work out individual freedom!

        Sham, sorry and happy at the same time, to disagree with you on the point of valuing Tantra in modern times.
        I hold all responsibilities of the Tantric world of India to disagree with it, with the authority of one of the five Rajrajeshwaras (Emperors), who are ordained to carry the epistructure of Tantra in India.
        I appreciate the spirit of practical research and theoretical speculations along individual democratic rights of Neo-Tantra world, but for information, Tantra is not Neo-Tantra.
        • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

          Sun, October 19, 2008 - 2:58 AM
          Kula,
          Are you saying that, properly speaking, there is only ONE valid lineage of Tantra? And a Buddhist one at that? Now your Hindu brothers and sisters are going to take exception to this point of view! Deepest respect for Acharya Nagarjuna, surely a great sage. But it seems more likely to me that he learned from an already existing Tantric tradition, rather than being the originator of it. All the traditions that I know of, claim at least to great antiquity, and that their scriptures are Divinely inspired, whether Shaivite, Shakta, or Vaishnava. None of them are like Neo-Tantra, it is not a democratic free-for-all. There is a parampara, there are acknowledged scriptures and ways of doing things - you can't just make something up and call it "Tantra". I am just saying that I agree with you in many ways, but I would suspect the (true) Tantra evolved through several different lines, only one of which is the Tantra of Mahayana Buddhism. Wouldn't you agree? Or am I misunderstanding you?

          I agree with your assessment of Osho. I never met him, but I have known *many* people who were deeply involved with the movement. In a lot of ways, his "Neo-Sannyas" really was the forerunner for Neo-Tantra. And he could write about it very well. The trouble was in the application, which, as you say, he did not really understand. You have filled in the blanks, for me anyways, with the story of that debate. If he had been willing to be humble and take instruction, he would have been a greater teacher in the end.

          Namaste,
          Torrey
          • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

            Sun, October 19, 2008 - 10:51 PM
            Torrey,

            I absolutely agree with what you say but you have misunderstood my subtle point. The point is that the term "Tantra" as a practicing school came first in Nagarjuna's literature according to the academic and historical research boards in India. We have for years gone through texts, their aging and dating through technical methods of museology to decide terms in Sanskrit to definite historical truths. Still now no text has been proved, following this technical methods, older than Nagarjuna's to hold the term Tantra. Nagarjuna's reference has been found in Shakta-Shaiva and even Vaishnava traditions also. These are research matter of facts. This is not my opinion but opinions of many hardcore scholars in India who always do not write or publish books. The total Natha system is said to be holders of different tantrik traditions following by and large the same structure with space and time relational minor differences. Mohenjodaro-Harapppan philosophy and practice has not been yet decided because the script is still under research. Many scholars have speculated on it and given their ideas but nothing asserted. The so-called "Shiva-lingams" found in achaeological survey in these sites has not been recognised as Shiva-lingams by authentic iconologists rather termed as fertility-cult symbols. The reason being there is no record of iconography in Vedic system at all. The first Indian icons found in India dates from Buddhist periods after mohenjodaro-Harappan icons, astounding!

            Mahayana is also not Tantra. Mahayana text sections have accepted compilations of Rahasyas and Kalpas till Nagarjuna. Even a big section of Mahayana that does not accept Nagarjuna's Yogachara or Tantra, eg, Dingnaga and others. Nagarjuna has been deified as Shiva in the total South Indian and Kashmiri traditions of Shaivism! Padmvajrapada alias Padmasamvbhava alias Swayanbhunatha, as well as Matsyendranatha reffer Nagarjuna's tantra texts as the basis of Tantrik indoctrination. What Sham is saying about oral tradition is also very much right. But, the Indian authorities of Tantrik achademics do not agree to call those teachings as Tantra because they have never used the term Tantra for their teaching in their texts. Oral traditions are regarded authorities of specific practices but not not indoctrinations. My first Guru Baba Byomshankar Aghori, one of the greatest Tanra oral tradition Gurus famous in the core Tantrik societies of both India and Tibet, who lived for more than 500 years and was a legend of Kayakalpa and alchemi practices, did not call Himself a Buddhist but an "non-Hindu Shaivite". He used to say that pure esoteric Shaivism entered the Natha system under Nagarjuna. Swayambhunatha is the institution of Tantra. He is claimed by all Nathas of the Navanatha 84 siddha traditions, both oral and indoctrinated. If you search in the oldest Indian Buddhist monastaries still surviving in Nepal, you will not find the regular Guru Rinpoche statue in the gurupitha of the monastaries. In that place, you will find either Nagarjuna or Shiva-Parvati worshipped as Uma-Swayambhu following Sanskrit/Newari hymns of Padmasambhava. Vajrayana is Buddhist but no less Shaivite. We cannot formally/technically and academically accept Shaivism as Vedism. Now, whether you call non-Vedics as Hindu, you have to be authenticated by the boards that hold Hindu religious authorities. Recently books have been published by Shankaracharyas who are the Popes of Hinduism, disregarded Tantra being 'Nastikyadarshana', which means 'philosophy of the non-believers'. These are terminologically the authentic sections of Indian philosophy and academics of such. Being a professor in profession, I cannot use speculations against terms and terminology of Indian philosophy.

            I agree with what both you and Sham are saying about oral traditions and ancient traditions of Tantra. They are not technically Tantra, but of course they collaborated in compilation of the tantras. They were Yamalas and not Tantras. Yamalas are texts of Agamis, not Tantrikas. Tantrikas of course have developed from Agamis, no question about that, but Agamis are not Tantrikas as whole. As for example, statues are made of stones and stones are not made up of statues. :) The compilation of Tantras follow a definite structure known as Panchakratu or Five Holdings/Sections. The texts that later ascribed by the term Tantra, but do not contain the Five Sections or not followed this methodological structure of presenting Tantric truth as authentic texts, are sectioned as Yamala sections within Tantra compilation as ancient supportives. Vajrayana first compiled the total institutional structure of Tantras. Thus, even the texts ascribed as Hindu Tantric texts in their assertions have marked "Vajrakilitam", or sealed through the authenticity of Vajra and Kilaya. You will get it in all the mandalapatala of Hindu Tantric texts. Many Hindu most popular deities in their icons have been archaeologically found from oldest Buddhist sculptures of India predating any Hindu sculpture of those! Scholars believe that after the Pala dynasty ended and the Senas took up, they turned most of the popular Buddhist and Jain deities and their temples under Hindu political rule and they later got incorporated into Hindu pantheon. Buddha Himself has referred to past six Buddhas who are Adinatha, Rama, Ashtavakra, Kapila, Krishna, Kashyapa. So, of course the teachings of these Masters have been received with great respect and chronology in Buddhism. So, it is not that I am trying to prove Tantra to be religiously only Buddhist, but academically and historically compiled under Buddhist Masters equally claimed by Shaivites, Shaktites, and Vaishnavites. If you read Chaitanya Bhagavat, you will find that Nityananda has been recognised as incarnation of 'Uddanda Pandit', an Apabhramsa (hybrid), epithet of Uddiyana Pandita or Padmasambhava. If you read the Ravirashmimala section of Sri Vidya Nityosaba Tantra by Bhashkarananda, one of major Sri Vidya tradition texts, you will find a hymn of Swayambhunatha recognising Him as Uddanda Pandita. If you research on the texts of Chidambaram in Tamil Nadu, you will get astounded to find that Nagarjuna's sections as well as Padmasambhava's sections of teachings are ascribed in name of Chidambaram Shiva. If you get acquainted with the archaeological survey reports, you will find that there are many artifacts and texts that induce scholars to think Chidambaram temple is the old Chidambaram Vihara established by Swayambhunatha captured and turned into a Hindu temple. The Chola Bronze traditional priest-sculptors follow the Buddhist texts of Tantric sculpture and each student of the orthodox tradition starts his studies of iconography with the Buddha statue as the auspicious starting!

            So, I believe you are a person of enough depth like Sham to ponder upon these few points over to many other field researches, to technically acclaim Tantra as a term of an institution in connection to Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Shaiva, Shakta, Vaishnava schools that hold Tantra, rather than the Vedics. Though in the Mishrakuli tantras have been found to be practiced by the brahmins in their size and shape not following the orthodox five sectioned methodology of Tantra.
            • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

              Wed, October 22, 2008 - 3:51 AM
              Kula,
              This is all very interesting. I had no idea these connections went so deep. And it may well be that Nagarjuna was the first to organize the oral tradition into a coherent school of thought and practice, known as Tantra, and to put it down in writing. Even if those oral traditions preceded him by thousands of years. The "non-Hindu Shaivite" concept is very intriguing, too. Though I have always understood the Shiva cult to be indigenous to India from the earliest known times - the Mohenjodaro-Harappan civilization - long before the founding of Buddhism. So, it seems unlikely that the Nathas learned Shaivism from Nagarjuna - wouldn't it be more probable the other way around? And that Nagarjuna then brought the Tantric oral tradition, and Shaivite-Natha mysticism, into Buddhism? I don't question that Nagarjuna then had a huge influence on Hindu Tantra. The "seals" on the Vedic mantras, as you say, would seem to be one example . My impression from all this is of a pre-Buddhist Shaivite (and Shakta) oral tradition - separate from the Vedic religion - which Nagarjuna organized into a formal school of Tantra.

              The other points I find fascinating are the assertions that "Swayambhunatha is the institution of Tantra" and "Vajrayana is Buddhist but no less Shaivite." Does this make Padmasambhava a great Shaivite initiate? Or Shiva taking human form? He was certainly a Siddha of the highest degree. And its not too much of a stretch for me to equate Parashiva with the primordial Buddha. I was not previously aware of how much recognition of Padmasambhava there already is in the Hindu tradition. Even so, if all this is true, it would seem than mainstream Hinduism is "missing out" on a major manifestation of Lord Shiva in the current era.

              I also wanted to respond to the later comment about the "mlecchas". I had understood the term as meaning born without a valid Hindu bloodline, and hence inherently out-caste, and unable to practice the Vedic religion. Which would seem to be nearly everyone in the West. I have understood that this does NOT apply to Tantra, which certainly supports the idea that Tantra developed independently of Hinduism. Not only are Westerners granted the Tantric initiations, but Tantra incorporates such un-Vedic practices as allowing women to officiate at religious rites, and even to be Gurus and heads of maths. As well as other practices that violate the Hindu purity codes, especially in the "left-hand" Tantra. It seems in this sense that Tantra is a more universal path. In Hindu terms, an outpouring of grace, such that even the "mlecchas" could have a chance at Liberation. And look how we have embraced it! I agree with you that some of the Neo-Tantra is not all that authentic, but its still part of this wave of Westerners looking to Tantra, as witness the existence of this forum. :-)

              Torrey
              • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

                Thu, October 23, 2008 - 6:46 AM
                Torrey,

                What you are comprehending is what my life-time research is all about.

                >>So, it seems unlikely that the Nathas learned Shaivism from Nagarjuna - wouldn't it be more probable the other way around? And that Nagarjuna then brought the Tantric oral tradition, and Shaivite-Natha mysticism, into Buddhism?

                <<Nagarjuna Himself was a Shaivite Brahmin, an exponent of Naya and a magician before He took pravajya / sannyas under an "achinta yogi". Yogis of the Buddhist order of Mahayana were called so. Later or in Nagarjuna's time only, Achintapuri Vihara or Ajanta caves were founded. The first chaitya-cave of Ajanta is dated 2nd Cent B.C by archaeological dept. of India. Remember, sakyamuni Buddha's of of the guru's were Pundarika, an oral Shaivite master! Buddha's family deity was Kali. Shakya families in Nepal, today also, worships Shiva-Shakti as their deities. prior to Nagarjuna the Natha tradition that existed was more akin to Jainism in which quarters we found pre-'Tantrik' yamalas and the 24 Tirthankaras of the Jains are divided into two groups, the Swamis and Nathas. The pre Buddhist Shiva lingams have been found from Jaina quarters. I have not found the oldest traits of Shaivism, they are supposed to be much earlier than the Vedas. The "Siddha-Natha" tradition of Shaivism and Buddhist Yogachara is perhaps the same school and comes under Nagarjuna. "Nava-Natha" tradition sources from Padmasambhava / Swayambhunatha. The icons of Shiva in the Siddhanatha tradition are of a sleek Shiva ( Chola or North Indian style) while the icons of Shiva in the Navanatha tradition are pot-bellied and particular features resembling Padmasambhva. The characters are also different in the Sanskrit literatures, the earlier Shiva is more Dakshinachari character while the later Shiva is more Vamachari character. So, you are right in your judgment. both Yogachara and Vajrayana are bridges between the Shaiva-Shakta and Buddhist heterodox traditions. Worship of Shiva by an adept-couple has been shown in one of the panels in the gate of Sanchi stupa (INDIAN TEMPLES AND PALACES by Michael Edwardes, Great Buildings of the World series, The Hamlyn Publishing Group Limited, New York, pg.24 ).

                >>Does this make Padmasambhava a great Shaivite initiate? Or Shiva taking human form?
                << Yes He Himself is recognised as Shiva Swayambhu by Matsyendranath. Remember this is the reason, Chongkhapa, the founder of the Gelukpa sect of tibetan Buddhism called Padmasambhava as a Hindu spy to corrupt Buddhism. Even in Swayambhunatha's time He was not fully recognised as a pure Buddhist by many of His Buddhist contemporaries. The trouble is this that The term Shiva and The term Padmasambhava are clashing in modern assesments of the Natha tradition holders, person is the same according to historical context. So Padmasambhava is known as Shivavatar Swayambhunatha in the Navanatha era. In the paintings of Alchi monastery of Ladakh Kashmiri Shaivism has been depicted within Buddhist practices. The oldest Buddhist caves of Maharashtra are all decked with Shiva-lingams. The oldest paintings of Padmasambhava are more akin to the Shiva iconography than the recent Tibetan forms. The Sikkimese oral as well as scriptural traditions portray Padmasambhava exactly as Indian Shiva. One of the eight forms of Guru Rinpoche is Nygma-odzar (translated as Adinatha in Sanskrit) is exactly an Indian Shiva icon. Remember the practice of smashanika, or dwelling in cremation ground as a meditator is prescribed by Buddha in the higher practices of a Buddhist adept which is akin to Shaivism and anti-cult to Vedic rites. Most of the Himalayan caves of Padmasambhva are equally worshipped as caves of Shiva by Shaivites.

                Yes, as you suppose, Mlechhas have been included in Shivas retinue with the other goblins and ghosts in the prophecies of Tantra in both Buddhist and Shaivite Tantra traditions ;) You will be more happy to learn that Padmasambhava is supposed to come as Maitreya in this era and teach in Mlechha land, a prophecy from texts ascribed to Khandro Yeshe Chogyal (Mahadevi Jayantika/Jayavidya).

                Tantra is Universal dharma free from different relegious dogmas but under a strict rule and structure that establishes more Existentialism. What to say my ashram is infested by 80% Mlechhas while my Indian Natha contemporaries call me Mlechhanatha. :(
        • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

          Sun, October 19, 2008 - 10:59 AM
          Kula, I agree with you that Tantra is not Neo-Tantra. However, I would respectfully contend that Tantra was, and is, an oral tradition. It antedates any books on the subject by thousands of years. Certainly the Rg Veda has glimpses of Tantric techniques indicating that Tantra is even older than the Rg Veda. I would contend that its roots go back to the Harrapan culture and predating Nagarjuna by 1,000 to as many as 10,000 years or more.

          You say, "It will take long time for Americans to decide Tantra as a science and not a pedestal to work out individual freedom!" Perhaps, but personally, I hope that never happens. To me, Tantra is alive and living and expanding and growing and a full part of every aspect of my life. To me, Tantra is something that is a part of me, not something I do on occasion. To me, Tantra is a science...and much more. To me, Tantric concepts can be used to work out individual freedom...and much more. To me, excluding the scientific aspects of Tantra is as mistaken as excluding the workings of individual freedom. So I hope that Americans NEVER decide to see "Tantra as a science and not a pedestal to work out individual freedom." It is my hope that we Americans see it as both...and much more.

          I find it...interesting...that you say you "...hold all responsibilities of the Tantric world of India..." You write that you "...very much do not participate in tribe discussions, the only reason being people are preconceived with individual notions which do not agree with [Kula's view of] the subject matter..." And yet you claim your comments are not being made "to get ego satisfied."

          Hmmm. You say you hold all responsibilities of the Tantric world of India, you don't want to debate with people who disagree with you because you have a greater knowledge of the matter, you brag that you are one of three people overseeing an academic congress, but claim that all of this braggadocio is not part of your egotism and that you're not doing this to get ego satisfied. Well, "Methinks thou dost protest too much."

          I have no doubt that you have all of these honors. However, a thousand honors doesn't matter in the face of history or even the words of a fool, if they be wise.

          Is it possible that you are not as ego-free as you think?

          Namaste!
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: Osho's view on sexuality

            Sun, October 19, 2008 - 12:29 PM
            now we are arguing over the definition of one word . how silly.

            you can have you tantra and they can have their neo tantra

            my school shall be called tananananatra.

            who wishes to be my disciple?

            I'll take a Ferrari as a gift.
          • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

            Sun, October 19, 2008 - 11:20 PM
            Adesh Sham,

            You are my friend and not opponent.
            You are a true tantrika and a writer who has every right to publish his reflections.
            You are sarcastic. :)

            I am a debater by training, but love to disagree with friends with full respect for friendliness.
            I am a Tantra lineage holder authority in Indian Tantric world and a professor of the subject too, without any democratic right to put my reflections termed as Tantra, because I follow the orthodox methodology to assert wholesome tantric texts with lineage responsibilities.
            I am blunt, but not sarcastic. ;)

            'Chaitanyatma' or 'Nartakatma' (Shivasutra) is ego or Self-confidence?
            I think you have no idea about a lineage authority in Indian traditional orthodox tantric order. The responsibility is too heavy for indulgence in discussions or teachings trespassing the limits of the structure. It is like the responsibility of a mother carrying a child in the womb, rather than lecturing opinions. Do you think a pregnant mother's responsibility to the child is ego? I think your scholarship will take a little time to amplify in your thought to recognise what this hopeless is saying before you jump into comments.

            I will love to remain as a friendly debater with you without personal attacks and expect the same from you.

            Have you read Rig Veda yourself?
            From my studying academic experience of 12 years in the field of Vedas, Vedantas, and Vedangas, I don't ascribe to a propaganda that Rig Veda has referred to Tantra. If you can show me words, lines, sections of Rig Veda speaking or referring Tantra, I will give up my scholastic authority of Tantra. Please take the help of a Sanskrit scholar who can read Rig Veda and translate to you before you jump into your conclusion. No propaganda literature should be taken into consideration in such an authentic debate. I also would plead you to find any tantric text methodically checked as dated before Nagarjuna uses the term 'Tantra' as the institution. For your information, Rig Veda has a term called 'Tantri' in one sukta and is used as a synonym of 'weaver' in the line grammatically supporting the meaning of the term. Five years back, in the last academic Tantra congress in India, through several arbitrations and symposium debates, has ascertained Tantra to be non-Vedic and in many ways anti-Vedic in its nature, structure, and origin. If you think there are non-Vedic Hindus, please assert it through Shankaracharyas and Vishwahinduparishad who legally hold the rights to ascertain Hinduism.

            I am sorry to say, my opinion about general American understanding of Tantra does not include you in that because you are regarded as a Natha Yoga practitioner. Your reflections are valuable, but not always technical or technically observant. Please read my post to Torrey if that makes sense to you.

            Another thing, my friend, whether I have ego or Self-Wisdom, cannot be proved, but that you possess that is really recognised through your reactions winning over my logical statements with sarcasm. If you are a Nath yogi of the real order, please check upon the Natha rules to check upon the differences between ego-centricness and Self-centricness. If the pulses of your two temples are flowing in same rhythm, you have transcended ego by the purification of self into Self, which is known as paramahamsasthiti, and I invite you, my friend, to check on the nadis and bindus of this hopeless debater in the American forum and we will have a great fun together. LOL!

            Adesh, by the order of the Holders.
            • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

              Mon, October 20, 2008 - 12:39 AM
              Adesh! Adesh! Adesh!

              Dear friend Kula.

              I do not see you as an "opponent" in any way. Rather, we are giving differences of opinions and supporting them strongly. As one occultist wrote, "As brothers, fight ye!" If so, then we are certainly brothers.

              You wrote, "I think you have no idea about a lineage authority in Indian traditional orthodox tantric order." That, by all means, indicates you are a true Tantric. This is because many sects of Tantra are known for their abilities to do magic, and you here identify yourself as a magician because you have no knowledge of my ideas about lineage and are therefore a mind reader. Unfortunately, your magic failed. As our Christian friends are wont to say, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." You might be surprised to know that merely because some people have trained and are honored enough to hold lineage and parampara doesn't mean that they go around talking bragging about it.

              Perhaps it is just my American upbringing that looks at a chest full of meaningless medals on politicians as being laughable, but as the occultist described above wrote, "Let success be your proof." Bragging, medals, claims to authority are unnecessary. In fact, another occultist wrote, "There is no room for authority in occultism." Perhaps in India people are in awe of claims of authority. Here in America we got rid of that in 1776. We don't believe in the King's Touch any more.

              Yes, I've been talking about occultism, here, and one of the first things to consider when talking about occultism is magic and spells. Many traditions of Tantra include the practice of magical rituals and spells. I think you will admit that magic and spells are not part of Vedic Hinduism. But they are included in the Rig Veda, are they not? Look at this: "From that great general sacrifice Ricas and Sama-hymns were born: Therefrom were spells and charms produced." Spells and charms? That's magic. That's Tantra, not Vedic Hinduism.

              BTW, there is at least one scholar, Dr. Natwar Jha, who has provided a viable translation of the Harappan (or Indus) text. See his book (with Dr. Navaratna S. Rajaram) "The Deciphered Indus Script."

              Namaste!
              • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

                Mon, October 20, 2008 - 2:43 AM
                There are Celtic magics also and they are not Tantra.
                Spells and charms are parts of Tantra and not Tantra.
                Spells and charms are part of many traditions not essentially Tantra.
                Kriyakanda of the Vedas specially AtharvaVeda is full of spells and charms. When the mishrakulis of 'Hindu Tantra' work out on those spells and charms, they do tantric utkilana of Vedic mantras to work out! You need to study on the Tantric culture of India more to assert such things.

                We have not come across a type of freedom of 1776 yet in India that claims American authority of Tantra over an Indian subject to be dwelt with Democratic rights. Thanks God (?) that we did not come across such civilized notions! Still Indian Tantra authorities hold monastic registered Samaya-holders as authentic. Few of them are there with traditional scholastic medalions. As any society have their reservations we hold the same. Another authority can only disclaim that and for that we hold traditional Tantra judgment boards and courts within the Tantrik societies like any indigenous guild. I speak from that stand-point and authenticity; not from American Tantra world. We can easily estimate that how much corruption has gone through Tantra to reach such American ends. We don't brag; that is authentically monopolized by Americans in every aspect of world culture and discoveries. And such Indian masters of authentic seal do not go to write independent Tantric fictions, but follow the dependence on the Parampara Shastras. Roman Catholics dress up icons of Jesus in Roman robes and features!

                Thank you very much for the name of the book on Mahenjodaro. But will you please check yours, before I buy the book to check myself, whether the scripts of Mahenjodaro ever pronounced Tantra or Shiva?

                It shows you are trying to bifurcate from the main point of the methodology of recognizing texts and thus asserting the postulations of Tantra, and trying to stick to illogical and sarcastic personal attacks by calling me "bragging". When a doctor questioned about authority of treatment, shows his registration number, do the American courts call him "bragging"? Please speak in line and follow the authentic structure of Tantranyaya (Tantric traditional logic) to support your statements. In the orthodox Tantric tradition, masters are prohibited to debate with people who are not following Tantric logic to debate on Tantra. Me being a scoundrel who teaches mlecchas ('shit-lovers'), a Sanskrit term for Westerners, do respect mlecchas for their trial and error perserverance of proving their "bragging" true; good exercise-experts! So, I do not mind carrying on the debate on definite lines. I am more like a train that goes in the fixed rails of Tantra, but appreciate buses with Tantra advertisements printed on them, it sells well in the market.

                Adesh!
                • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

                  Tue, October 21, 2008 - 10:26 PM
                  I never said all magic was Tantric, but the magics of the Rig Veda are Tantric.

                  Come on, Kula. One of the most famous images from Mohejodaro is Shiva as Lord of Animals.

                  If I ask, John, "What authority do you have?" and John tells me, he is answering a question. If someone comes to a web forum and says "Only I have the right to speak with authority because you're just American slime and I hold parampara," that's bragging.

                  Sorry, but it's not in my American nature to be a nice little slave and "speak in line." On the other hand, if I was going to "follow the authentic structure" I'd probably follow the path of the Pagal Naths of the Nava Nath sampradaya, strip off my clothes, run up a tree, and fa*t in your general direction! Wake up! LOL

                  Namaste!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Osho's view on sexuality

                    Wed, October 22, 2008 - 9:22 PM
                    Yes, this means to be in line exactly.

                    >>I never said all magic was Tantric,

                    <<"Yes, I've been talking about occultism, here, and one of the first things to consider when talking about occultism is magic and spells. Many traditions of Tantra include the practice of magical rituals and spells. I think you will admit that magic and spells are not part of Vedic Hinduism."
                    .....................Don't change your version so quick.

                    >>but the magics of the Rig Veda are Tantric.

                    <<Please assert so with references to be checked about authenticity.
                    It seems to be a speculation from your side. How do you assert the magics of Rig Veda to be Tantric?

                    >>Come on, Kula. One of the most famous images from Mohejodaro is Shiva as Lord of Animals.

                    <<This is where I don't come on in your logical track! :) When Mohenjodaro civilisation was there, there is no historical evidence of Shaivism prevailing in that time. The iconographic form which has been recognised as "Pashupati" is a speculation on the part of late Rakaldas Bandapadhaya who was of course a historian and archaeologist, but never an iconographer or iconologist. The form of the man sitting in a posture with animals around him in the seal can also be a depiction of a shaman. Moreover, the cult of Pashupat who calls Shiva "The Lord of Animals" originates historically during late 9th Century AD in South India. This has been ascertained in the scholastic realm of India. You are just not update. Moreover, you have not bypassed my question that I put in a more focused manner this time:
                    Does the Indus Valley script reading, in the book you mentioned, has any mention of the discussed seal being recognised through the script as by any means Shiva Pashupati?????

                    >>if I was going to "follow the authentic structure" I'd probably follow the path of the Pagal Naths of the Nava Nath sampradaya, strip off my clothes, run up a tree, and fa*t in your general direction!

                    <<This again shows your little knowledge about the authenticity of the lineage you are speaking. Baba Pagal Nath's Navanatha sampradaya is the same one I belong to. Baba Pagal Nath's Navanatha sampradaya is through Swayambhunath. Baba Pagla Baba's (Ranchi) Guru was Avadhut Kalachand Thakur, who was disciple of Pagal Nath of Maheshwardi of Bangladesh. Other disciple of Pagal Nath of Maheshwardi (Bangladesh) is Ma Maheshwari Avadhutika, consort of Baba Byom Shankar Aghori. Baba Byom Shankar Aghori and Ma Maheshwari Avadhutika are my first Guru and Guru Mothers. Moreover, my last Guru Mother, Ma Brahmamoyee, is lineage holder of Ma Maheshwari. I have personally listened from these Masters the details of the tradition. There is also a very famous book on their oral teachings transcribed in volumes by one Bengali author, Promod Kumar Chattopadhaya known as "Tantravilashir Sadhusangha". If this voluminous book ever gets translated in English, people of the world will be able to recognise the basic stricture of Tantra. The Navanatha order is explained as the order of Nine (Nava) Nathas:
                    1. Swayambhunatha aka Padmasambhava, the originator recognised as reincarnation of Adinatha and is sometimes so called. See Matsyendra Samhita published by Asiatic Society, Kolkata. That Swayambhunatha is no other than Padmasambhava, originator of Vajrayana and Kaula system has been established into the scholastic world of India in very recent times and my research papers are the maiden researches on this historical assertation and has been accepted within the volume of Bibliotheica Sikkim Himalayica, 1996, published by Research Institute of Tibetology. Now other researchers are also coming up with the same finding. Moreover, after archaeological discovery of Somapuri Vihar of Bangladesh in recent times, this is getting historically established.
                    2. Matsyendranatha, aka Minapa, disciple of Swayambhunatha.
                    3. Jalandharanatha, aka Jalandharipa, disciple of Matsyendranatha.
                    4. Gorakshanatha, aka Gorakshapa, disciple of Matsyendranatha. Gorakshanatha, not being able to recognise the way of an Avadhuta, tried to rule over Matsyendranatha, and was later allowed only to be a Natha Guru of dakshinachara order under serious restraints. So, his tradition is known as Darshaninatha tradition, which means "Appearance of a Natha", but not a real Natha who is to be recognised as Aghoranatha, or "the Natha Beyond Illusion".
                    5. Kanhanatha, aka Kanhipa, disciple of Jalandharanatha.
                    6. Humkaranatha, disciple of Swayambhunatha.
                    7. Vajragarbhanatha, disciple of Swayambhunatha.
                    8. Trailokyanatha, aka Tilopa, Guru of Naropada, aka Naropa.
                    9. Shantinatha, aka Shantipa, disciple of Naropa and the contemporary chancellor of Nalanda University.

                    The Goraknath order gives a different set of Nine Nathas, with the first four in common.
                    Try to find out with responsibility to your own lineage, the basic structure of Tantra, known as the Kaulakrama. Of course, there are heterogeneous rights in Tantra, but following the basic code of Tantra. That is why Tantra is known as 'Unity in Diversity'.

                    This is a tragedy that the followers of the same lineage do not know their own original structures and carry on ego fights among themselves!

                    Love, Adesh!
                    • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

                      Wed, October 22, 2008 - 10:26 PM
                      Wrong again, Kula!

                      The Gundestrup Cauldron, dated to perhaps 120 b.c.e. has an almost exact duplication of the Pashupati seal found in Mohenjodaro, and it is generally conceded that the Pashupati came first. In fact, according to Timothy Taylor ("The Gundestrup Cauldron" in Scientific American March 1992, pp. 66-71), it matches the Paahupati seal dated to the 2nd millenium b.c.e.

                      I'm not changing anything.

                      Be careful of what you assume, Kula. (You seem to do that so frequently.) After all when you assume it makes an A$$ out of U and me. As for me...I never denied it! But then, I don't spend a bunch of time bragging or making wild, irrelevant claims.

                      Namaste!
                      • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

                        Thu, October 23, 2008 - 7:04 AM
                        How does that prove that the seal of Mahenjodaro is particularly Pashupati Shiva and not anything else. Just by strong adjectives and sarcasm you have again tried to bifurcate, my friend Sham. You have also forgot to assert from your Mohenjodaro scripture the script found with the same seal. I think your comment "bragging or making wild, irrelevant claims" suits you more than me. My assertions are backed by materials, yours not.
                        You don't have spend more time in debating with me if you are emptied of your authentic materials and logical sequences.
                        Another for sure information, neither my any Master nor me take any cash or kind against dharma teachings and instructions; so, your own "wild, irrelevant" assumptions about me associating with you in your words "makes an A$$ out of U and me", I vehemently deny such claims. May be good for you! Please don't try to monopolise tantra as American for encashments!
                        Adesh!
                        • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

                          Thu, October 23, 2008 - 11:12 PM
                          Kula wrote, "You don't have spend more time in debating with me..."

                          You're right. I don't.

                          Beside, it's much more fun practicing Tantra than listening to someone claim long lists of authority and spend so much time bragging.

                          Old Sufi saying: "Beware, my son, of too much study, or you may become a scholar."

                          Namaste!
                          • Debating and challenging

                            Thu, October 30, 2008 - 5:42 AM
                            been off line for quite a while, but I see nothing really has changed, that there are always those regardless of what of authority, tradition and scholarship exists that seek to challenge. Indeed it seems that challenging seems to be a deep need, that there is some unresolved passion that seeks to find its expression in argument and challenge.

                            Kula, is a scholar to be honored as one, beyond all his spiritual attainments, his scholarly work in its own right should be deeply valued. Like a scientist he has documented the details of these traditions and lineages. Never have I heard him say spirituality can not be experienced outside these traditions, only if you're going to speak on them this is the accurate data about them. I clearly see the difference between the scholar, and the compassionate guru that this man is, I see the fruit and change of those he has been a loving father and light to. And I am thankful that he is both, as there is value and dignity in scholarship and that it should not be villainized by those on the spiritual path.

                            Sham, is a brilliant astute person, and has accumulated much knowledge in the traditions in and around tantra, yet I often hear this little scared wounded boy in him, that gets easily hurt inside and because of that hurt feels a need to attack the character of whoever is before him, whether that person holds understanding or spiritual light. I pray for his healing, and hope that he will not end up in osho's latter condition.
                            • Re: Debating and challenging

                              Thu, October 30, 2008 - 3:39 PM
                              LOL!

                              Nice try, Yosef! But your insults and attacks are not only wrong, but don't bother me in the slightest. If anything, they simply make me laugh at your ineptitude at putting them forth and thinking that you actually might be hitting a nerve.

                              But by all means, continue to attack me. Just remember that when you point a finger at me you're pointing your other fingers back at yourself.

                              I once knew a man who put on a white coat and went into a hospital. An ill person ran up to the man in the coat and asked for advice. The man in the coat actually had read many books, but had little experience. He gave advice to the man who had run up to him and honestly thought it was wonderful advice.

                              The ill person went home, took the advice, and was dead in a week.

                              Yosef, be careful of the white coat you follow.
                              • Re: Debating and challenging

                                Fri, October 31, 2008 - 2:35 AM
                                I don't quite get the man in the white coat thing, Sham. Are you saying Kula is like that? Yosef may be completely off-base with what he said about you, but his comments about Kula I believe are true - this guy is a very impressive scholar of religion AND an advanced practitioner. A rare combination. I think its fine to have a debate with him - and I think he enjoys it, or he wouldn't stick around. But I also think we're fortunate to have a person of this caliber in our little Internet forum, and he should be accorded some respect.
                                • Unsu...
                                   

                                  Re: Debating and challenging

                                  Fri, October 31, 2008 - 8:46 AM
                                  only one way to settle this...

                                  black magic warfare !
                                  let the games begin ...!
                                  • Unsu...
                                     

                                    Re: Debating and challenging

                                    Fri, October 31, 2008 - 11:16 AM
                                    Yusuf, "Kula, is a scholar to be honored as one, beyond all his spiritual attainments, his scholarly work in its own right should be deeply valued. Like a scientist he has documented the details of these traditions and lineages. Never have I heard him say spirituality can not be experienced outside these traditions, only if you're going to speak on them this is the accurate data about them. I clearly see the difference between the scholar, and the compassionate guru that this man is, I see the fruit and change of those he has been a loving father and light to. And I am thankful that he is both, as there is value and dignity in scholarship and that it should not be villainized by those on the spiritual path."

                                    Agreed! There are not many here who even remotely understand what Kula is talking about.
                                    • Re: Debating and challenging

                                      Fri, October 31, 2008 - 11:34 AM
                                      Indeed, we should always value people of great learning and practice.

                                      But when egotism gets in the way of their learning and practices, should that not be pointed out?

                                      George W. Bush received an BA from Yale and a MBA from Harvard Business School. He then went to Texas and failed as the head of an oil company (in Texas!). An education and a pedigree doesn't guarantee that one will be good in any particular area. By all means, we should always value people of great learning and practice. However, that means recognizing their limitations as well as their gifts.

                                      Namaste!
                              • Re: Debating and challenging

                                Mon, November 10, 2008 - 4:52 PM
                                Sham,
                                I neither insulted nor attacked indeed I praised you, I only observed your repeated pattern, and if it truly did not bother you in the slightest you would've not written anything, :) But my hope is someday you will be free, from that wounded part, so that your wonderful gift to humanity can be more compassionately broadcasted.

                                Stay in the tender moment,
                                Yosef
  • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

    Thu, October 23, 2008 - 12:06 PM
    Well, I have noted much verbosity thrown around here.
    It seems obvious that people do have their (oblivious) preconceptions upon absolutely everything!
    You guys could, for all things considered, be arguing as to 'where' the Tao is !?!
    My view is that if you get lost in the details, then you are really lost...
    (in a dark forest, or quagmire, or dirty laundry, you name it!)
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Osho's view on sexuality

      Thu, October 23, 2008 - 12:50 PM
      Thank god I practice Mega Ultra Tantra Extra Deluxe© (MUTED) and don't have to worry about all of these.........................werds!


      ~V~
      • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

        Thu, October 23, 2008 - 1:03 PM
        ha! cackles the hag
        • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

          Mon, November 17, 2008 - 3:06 AM
          If any body is interested to know the view on sexuality, he must read the "Vigyan Vairava Tantra" and "From Sex to Super consciousness" by OSHO himself.

          In the book "Vigyan Vairava Tantra" Osho explained the 3 slokas out of 118 slokas, regarding Sex and on the other book he explains a lot about Sex and its use in Tantra and meditation.

          If any body interested i can send him the two e-books to him by e-mail.
  • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

    Mon, August 17, 2009 - 5:36 PM
    according to the Teachings, the passage of this book to those ready for the
    instruction will attract the attention of such as are prepared to receive the Teaching. And,
    likewise, when the pupil is ready to receive the truth, then will this little book come to him, or
    her. Such is The Law. The Hermetic Principle of Cause and Effect, in its aspect of The Law
    of Attraction, will bring lips and ear together–pupil and book in company. So mote it be!

    according to the Teachings, the passage of this osho book to those ready for the
    instruction will attract the attention of such as are prepared to receive the Teaching. And,
    likewise, when the pupil is ready to receive the truth, then will this little osho's book come to him, or
    her. Such is The Law. The Hermetic Principle of Cause and Effect, in its aspect of The Law
    of Attraction, will bring lips and ear together–pupil and osho's book in company. So mote it be!

    thantra did not need a guru now this word guru is not needed ... now a word is like a facilitator is right for now
    A facilitator .............:
    A facilitator is someone who helps a group of people understand their common objectives and assists them to plan to achieve them without taking a particular position in the discussion. The facilitator will try to assist the group in achieving a consensus on any disagreements that preexist or emerge in the meeting so that it has a strong basis for future action. The role has been likened to that of a midwife who assists in the process of birth but is not the producer of the end result.

    guru is now get old and by a time of osho its completely dead dead word it is not survive now because
    • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

      Mon, August 17, 2009 - 5:53 PM
      “The lips of wisdom are closed, except to the ears of Understanding.”–The Kybalion
      .now this word guru is not needed any more because of self intelligence now a men is too intelligence to know what is a right for him and what is not for me hear i like to see a learning organization which osho produce i see osho is a great creator of a new human not new but a in evolution it is new in every expect from common individual or people to highly intelligent person
      i am can say my self is highly intelligent person or a fool as u wish
      • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

        Mon, August 17, 2009 - 7:09 PM
        I say this “ learning organization which osho produce “ and “ he is a creator of new human “ becos I am a observer who can see this hear in this tribe topic call osho’s view on
        Osho's view on sexuality people can chat not on this topic but all so on his Rolls Royces all so I think for this and this give me a great idea to open a new topic osho & his gifted Rolls Royces may be this people go there but I like to say you r doing a great job on the flavor
        Of osho because of you I can say this is a “ learning organization which osho produce “ under this umbrella name osho u can speck and learn all so so many things like “ human behavior “
        Osho study this & he know about “ human behavior “ I am all so study under tantra yes under tantra… tantra is a great & it is old then Aryans come to the India who created Vedas and now Hindu religion psychology now this Aryans wont to call TANTRA AS A HINDU but shiva is not a hindu or Aryan he is a Dravidian there are are inf . proof if u search on internet if you like to study
        Osho say I am a gate not a guru and he all so say I am a guru or a more then a guru simply he wash a way a business of all guru if any intelligent person read him or lesion him
        Ok I say this because of
        "Kulavadhuta Satpurananda " is a my friend and i like to call him my facilitator but not a guru he know the secret so i call him my guru because i am in love with him so in hate all so

        he ask
        Now the question is was Osho a Guru in the sense of the real term?
        Yes
        Did he train up disciples with individual care?
        Yes
        Did he at all make a generation to support his 'profound' teachings?
        No and yes all so because he is more intelligence then coming generation and he know how to guide this generation and he done his work now I am hear to answer your question this is inf for you
        Did Osho himself practice that?
        Yes
        Did you Mark yourself practiced it and accomplished in what Osho says and you appreciate?
        yes
        Do you know anyone who has accomplished in it from Osho's teachings and train ups?
        Yes
        • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

          Mon, August 17, 2009 - 7:57 PM
          only because of osho i am in respect and a great fullness so u understand me khapa baba i am osho facilitator osho create ground where seed transform in to a new life for this very care is needed this is apply to gardener or a farmer but what about a natural forest seed transform in to a new life which is more beautiful then a garden osho create that forest which you can not see because it is in a seed which you cary now read osho and transform in to a new life this is a shot cut now human have no time to do meditation for years and years now old teachings is dead for this present human he don't have a time to go to read a book OR A GO TO GURU FOR ANY TEACHINGS this is all so apply for a group of some crowd only not for all crowd on this planet and osho is not for a crowd but for a individual so this make easy seed transform in to a new life osho create ground why don't you use it it is a same
          • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

            Mon, August 17, 2009 - 8:03 PM
            Osho said when religion disappears, pornography will die with it and i like to add ....so as tantra
            • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

              Mon, August 17, 2009 - 8:17 PM
              so as tantra only remains
              • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

                Sat, August 22, 2009 - 7:55 AM
                Good Mitesh,

                You are trying hard.
                Carry on but don't come to a conclusion so fast.
                The day you have attained Niravana and will prove it to equals, that day I will respect your support to Osho as a true Guru, The Enlightener. The stuff that holds the flag needs to that strong to hold it right.

                I am a Osho-lover and for a time being back in time me and Osho met in the same Aghori congregation with Paglababa as his Guru / fecilitator (?), as you know well Paglababa (Pagolnathji) and me are guru-brothers.

                But how are you doing these days? The Srividya-sadhana that you took from me, how are you working with that? I will be visiting Pune this winter to be with Anu and Jai and hope will be also meeting you there and have graet fights equally with love and not hatred.

                Love and Adesh!
                • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

                  Sat, August 22, 2009 - 6:01 PM
                  hello


                  Hello
                  i don't carry anything yet and conclusion..... i pray to god it's never come if its come then it's destroy the whole and about attained Nirvana this word miss guide all world ..many time use for condemn other .......and unrespectfull manner ......but i am not going to miss guide my self under this word for me to understand this word is a very personal love affair with the self and don't need a recognition from other to me Nirvana is recognize the wonder and the beauty and a ask
                  How do we come to recognize the wonder and the beauty? Because the wonder and the beauty that is within us rises in response to what is seen. Beauty and wonder are part of ourselves. These things don't stand by themselves. Beauty and wonder cannot be recognized in the exterior world if they aren't within waiting to be summoned. All these things: wonder, beauty, love, form the first emanations of consciousness. In recognizing their presence, better still, in celebrating their presence, we are enjoying that consciousness and thereby, automatically becoming more conscious.
                  wow..... question and answer together ... how you know this ?.. then you are...!!!!!!!!! great . i love you ..... this answer come from more then a intelligent ... your answer is right ... now nothing remains............. only still, in celebrating and presence............. now like to ask what about wonder(have a feeling of surprise) about consciousness and wonder about existence of consciousness ? .... or ... consciousness wonder about self consciousness.... if this is .... then better be still and know every thing and don't tall any one about this because this is a very personal love afire with the self .. and now tantra take a birth in this a very personal love afire with the self so with osho and you all so this is some thing new what osho created he is a designer and I all so
                  for what i am waiting it's come to me in words in poetry or like this you may it call ato writing .. so i send you ... may be you understand may be not......... but this is my undressing an this is my quote which represent my understanding so again i pray .. i am a fool designer so i create a god an i say " silence (Nirvana) is the language of God, not mine an very few people can understand this not me .. all else is poor translation an i pray to god " my Life is not a tragedy, it is a comedy. To be alive means to have a sense of humor, to have a deep, loving quality, to have playfulness." please blesses me with this ........ because this is what i don't have in reality so please god i pray for this ...

                  but
                  I am fine and miss you Srividya-sadhana is going on same repetition because of study of Gurdjieff I am still doing it ;) iam wating for you and have graet fights equally because I don’t wont to destroy the whole for some thing new born graet fights equally is needed
                  thank you my darling friend
                  love

                  this is a very personal love afire love and flow of wind say Adesh!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Osho's view on sexuality

                    Sat, August 22, 2009 - 9:55 PM
                    Dear Sweetheart Mitesh Mahafriend,

                    It's a great fun to see you teased on Osho issues! :)

                    If you don't need a Guru that's quite understandable. But in place of Guru you need a "God" to pray for blessings!!!!! That proves your attachment to ignorance is strong enough to have the expectation to receive Grace from an imaginary God rather than a living Guru. I chose to get the Grace of a living Guru in my life rather than any imaginary God fixing me into any imaginary understanding of the term Nirvana. This also proves your emotional chicky-ness, that I have discussed in person many a times with you. The emotional cheekiness is, if you are an Oshoite you are believed to be an Existentialist. Aren't you? Why did Existence choose you to be a posthumous sannyasi of Osho? One who knows to read the silent teachings of Existence says that all that human beings understand through conditioned perception as luck is basically a perfect synchronicity of what they deserve and what they get. Because the quality of becoming a true disciple is not in you. Existence did not allow you to meet Osho in person. Most of the posthumous followers are incapable to have a living Guru because they don't have the faculty of realization that makes them follow a Guru through every step that S/He instructs. It is a convenient process of devotion so choose an imaginary God to grace out Liberation or a dead prophet to agree with. Because neither the God nor the dead prophet checks upon a posthumous follower and that they don't have to hear the word "no" from their guides. This is one main reason that when you wanted Tantra initiation from you I didn't give you, and asked you to follow our own style and just guided you in the role-play of a friend to follow Shri Vidya as the first stepping to Tantra world, if you really remember and accept the fact of our past meetings.

                    Nirvana means:
                    Nih (khandana pratyaya) + Van(murdha)a = Nirvana

                    Nih means NO
                    Vana (with murdha-na) means Identity

                    So Nirvana means Non-Identity. Now tell me where do you get the choice of self in Non-Identity? This is why I term you as emotional-chicky.

                    And now you need Gurdijeff too! So you are not content with Osho even being your posthumous Guru! Check upon your devotion and sincerity to what you really believe and are content with.

                    I love your chicky-ness Mitesh! Because it gives me a break. :) :) ;) :p
                    • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

                      Mon, August 24, 2009 - 8:13 AM
                      i love you
                      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_writing ( I all so for what i am waiting it's come to me in words in poetry or like this you may it call ---ato writing --- (((((( Automatic writing )))))) .. so i send you ... may be you understand may be not........ i am not a Practitioners of Automatic writing but its happen i am honest for me to say to me

                      i am a fool designer so i create a god So Nirvana means Non-Identity. Now tell me where do you get the choice of self in Non-Identity? This is why I term you as emotional-chicky. you r right that why i say u my guru my friend my facilitator
                      because only you have a authority to kick my ass any time to aware me thank you and showering your Grace on me as laving Guru in my life rather than any imaginary God fixing me into any imaginary understanding of the term Nirvana. with out emotional chicky-ness i cant live
                      because emotion exist and Non-Identity dose not exist … in every human being i say my self a fool and i know every time fool attract people who are more intelligent and they miss because of knowledge and a comparison of knowing take a place to them and they miss the understanding because of human behavior and a low of comparison which human mind have
                      but i don't understand what you write now when my ability to understand come then i start again on this topic
                      i know in this whole world only you know what a tantra is and only you are the person now for me in living Guru which i in contact with me this is my understanding and my intelligence i don't wont to fight with you but then
                      now my fighting is like a child i don't wont to hurt any one becouse of osho
                      what a metamorphosis !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


                      i know about Gurdijeff
                      this is because of osho I know about him … osho teach me or he introduces me
                      this all people
                      "enough of all those genghis khans and tamerlanes and nadir shahs and adolf hitlers and stalins and mussolinis .. if educationists of the world are little , they should simply drop these people from the history books there is no need to give attention to them just drop all that nonsense , that garbage . why not talk about the buddhas ? why not talk about the beautiful painters? why not talk about the great dancers, the musicians, all kind of artists? let people 's mind s be filled with creativity and it will be very easy for a creative person to find a the buddha --- osho ----

                      osho is a first man who talk and introduces me my guru my friend my facilitator this all people and which I need all this people all as to use low of comparison which human mind have iam going to compare you with all and I am going to prove you r nothing and you r every thing this all are my guru my friend my facilitator i am content with or this people is behind me when I going to fight with you first I pray and I start my fight because you invite me with you to infinite fight which is mining full and a mining less but because of my experiment I start with a prayer and all so introduces you . my my guru my friend my facilitator to you before I start

                      shrI.m hrI.m klI.m OM …Haim Hklim Hsauh. the Yoginis of the 10 vital breaths. Hrim Klim Blem. Hrim Shrim Sauh. Hsraim Hsrklim Hsrsauh. ka e i la hrim ha sa ka ha la hrim sa ka la hrim and reaming existents
                      of my guru my friend my facilitator s … not only a Gurdijeff but all so


                      950 - 1050 khajuraho ------- 1017 birth of ramanuja in southen india a philosopher and mystic --- 1088 ta hui the grat zen master is born near yangtse river in 1137 he is given his own zen temple on ching shin mountain and attract more then 1000 disciple his quote birth is thus --- death is thus verse or no verse what 's the fuss? -----------1117-- a yang french philosopher name abelard -----1130 hakim sanai ,,, a court poet his spritual masterpiece -- " the hadiqa" -( the walled garden truth ------ 1048 omar khayyam the mystical poet in mishapur persia adopts the name " hkhayam" - meaning tentmaker --his work on algebra becomes known throughout medieval europe and he also contributes to the l reform of muslim calendar he measures the length of year as 365.24219858156 days - an outstandingly accurate calculation he gains international fame for his mystical love poems , contained in his book rubaiyat ---- 1182 giovanni de bernadone is born in assisi , italy ,,,,," francis of assisi was enlightened -not because he was monk , but in spote of it. it is like a man taking a part in a race carrying two rocks in his two hands and he arrives first -- not because of those two rokcks that he has beeb carrying in his hands but in spite of them it is a miracle that st. francis ever became enlightened . he must have been a rare man -- that even remaing a christian he became enlightened -- osho--- 1200--- dogen, a famouse japanese zen master born in kyoto studying with many teachers and master he become enlightened with master ju-ching and latter found the soto school of zen . he teaches zazen sitting medition an attracts so many followers that he was move serceral times to more spacious temples .. dogen : " to study the way is to stuy the self . to study the self is to forget the self . to forget the self is to be enlightened by all things " ---- 1207 mevlana jalaluddin rumi is bborn in afghanistan . under threat of a mongol invasion , at 37 has become a mystical poet under the influence of a sufi master , senseddin tebrizi ( also known as ' ahams') rumi becomes enlightened after 36 hours continuous whirling ,during his life he writes over 25000 couplets of verse ,,,,,,, " mevlana say : ' come , even if you have broken your vows a thousand times ' intelligent people are bound to break all their cows many time' because life goses on changing , situations go on changing and the vow is taken under pressure - may be the fear of hell , the greed for haven , respectability in society... it is not coming from your innermost core. when something comes from your innerbing it is never broken --- osho --1215 magana carta -------1260 meister eckehart , one one of the great christian mystics is born in thuringia ,,,,,,,,,,,” two things western enlightenpeople have been doing : one was pretending to be part of the church , using the language of the church and pouring their enlightenment into it . because that was one of the way not get into conflict with the church and the sate ; that’s what was done by meister eckehart saint francis , Jacob bohme and others , they remained part of the church . it is just a device to servive and to share some thing . and they use a language of church which is vry unfitting . they coud not be so free as zen masters or a sufi master ; they coud not express themselves totally; they had force their experience into cristian jargon, which was dull , dead. Or those whowher not ready to compromise had to go into hiding , they had to go underground ; that’s how alchemy was born . alchemists where not chemists ; alchemist were not really trying to transform base metals into gold , that was just a device to hide behind --- osho --- 1335 lalla ishwari birth in a village near srinagar , Kashmir ……… “ there have been very few woman sages in the world because man has not allowed that much freedom to women ; they have been repressed down the eges . but those few woman were as great as Buddha , as Christ ,as Krishna . they can be counted on ones fingers ; there are not more than dozen name , lella is at the top ; she was really a rare woman and she was one of most beautiful women …. Kashmir has the most beautiful women in the whole India not only it the land beautiful but the people are all so very beautiful , lalla remained naked , disowned everything , renounced everything – still , no police commissioner come to her to say that this was obscene. On the contrary, in Kashmir they have proverb ‘ we know only two words which are meaningful ; one is allah and another is lalla ‘ they have raised lalla equal to god allah , she was respected so immensely – her songs are so beautiful .. I have asked one of my Kashmir friend to translate them because they are in kashmiri . but even hearing them … they have such a music . I don’t understand kashmiri , but whenever I have gone to Kashmir I have found somebody who can sing lalla songs. They have such a depth that although I don’t understand the language , I understand the feeling , the vibe. And lalla must have impressed the whole of Kashmir as nobody has ever impressed Kashmir “ ----- osho ------ 1360 ramananda birthin allhabad , india who become a prominent spiritual master , accepting people from all levels of society as his disciples ,including kabir , and raidas whom becom enlightened master in their own right… -----1394 lkkyu in japan he become a wondering zen poet and enlightened mystic with unorthodox way ----1440 -1518 kabir a weaver and a poet kabirs mystical song attract devotees both hindu and muslim ----1450 -1547 meera
                      a rajput princess whose devotion to Krishna “ meera is a class by her self she is rare , her bliss her ecstasy come from being not from doing .for her ecstasy comes from being not from doing .for her just being is a festive and joyous . her song her dans , is not piece of work of her , it is an expression of her . her ecstasy she is blissful that she is bursting into song and dance ---osho –1469 -1538 nanak born near Lahore of warrior stock nanak travels throughout the middle east, tibet and southern Russia, eventully founding the sikh religion and becoming its first guru “ the founder of Sikhism ,nanak , was one of those beautiful people for whom I have immense love . he was a simple man . he had just one disciple and that too because he love to sing . all his teaching s were delivered in signing .. spontaneous ,singing –not like a poet composing – and his disciple would play on a simple instrument just to give some music to what the master was saying “ – osho -- 1452 -1519 leonardo de vinci is considered to be the highest individual expression of renaissance , exhibiting an incredible diversity of talent ----1517 --- martin luther “ martin luther has said a tremendously significant thing . he say ‘ pecca fortiter :sin bolodly ‘ it is strange the statement seems to be unbelievable - a man like luther saying ‘ sin boldly.’ But the meaning is really worth pondering over he is saying love permeates the whole of existence so don’t be afraid , even if you are in sin . be boldly in it . because existence is always ready to forgive . is forgiving . love always is forgiving . he dose not mean that you should go and sin he simply saying ; your greatest sin is nothing compared to the forgiveness that goes on flowing from existence towards you --- osho ---1534 chaitanya an enlightened Indian mystic started communing with the divine through singing and dancing -----1575 jakob bohme, a german religious mystic from the twon of goerlitz a cobbler by profession , he is given ot ecstatic visions and is influenced in his writings by Paracelsus, the kabbala ,astrology, alchemy and the hermetic tradition ------1591 william Shakespeare leaves his home in Stratford –on –avon and goes to London , where he become an actor he writes 28 plays and 154 sonnets “ Shakespeare is a great poet . but not a mystic . he has an intuition into the reality of things , but that is only a glimpse , very vague as if seen in dream , not clear his question in hamlet shows that unclarity ‘ to be not to be ? can never be asked by a man who know s .because there is no question of choice you cannot choose between ‘tobe or not to be is the only way to be unless you disappear .. you are not really there . it looks a little difficult to understand because basically it is irrational . but reson is not the way of existence is as irrational as you can conceive” –osho-- ----1622 bankei an enlightened Japanese zen master “ bankei is one of the superb masters , but bankei was an ordinary man . once it happened that bankei was working in his garden. Somebody come a seeker .a man in search of master and he ask bankei gardener , where is the master ?’ bankei laughed and said ‘ wait ,come from that door , inside you find the master ‘ so the man went eound and come inside . he saw bankei sitting on a throne , the same man who was a gardener out side . the seeker said ,’are you kidding?’ get down from this throne . this is sacrilegios, you don’t pay any respect to master.’ Bankei got down , set on the ground and said , ‘ now then it is difficult now you will not find the master here because I am the master -- osho – 1629 shah jahan , mogul emperor of India , lose his beloved wife mumtaz mahal in tribute to her creat a memorial . the taj mahal the greatest architectural feat of its time is completed in 1653 ----------1633 galileo galilei is brought to trail for heresy by the Vatican for supporting the copernican theory that the earth orbits around the sun . according to the church , this violates the biblical view that earth is at the center of creation and the sun and stars revolve around it. -----1630 -40 renee Descartes the French philosopher , introduces the doctrine of free will and creats a revolution in western philosophy by placing the individuals conscious self at the center og all inquiry hence his famous assertion ‘ cogito ergo sum” – “ ithink therefore iam . “ although this mark an important milestone in western thinking ---thinking cannot exist in a vacuum , if somebody say , ‘ I am , there fore I think .’ it is right but to say .’ I think therefore I am ‘ is simply absurd . still there is meaning to it; Descartes is the father of western philosophy and the whole western mind has been influenced by two persons – Aristotle and Descartes so in the west everything goes through thinking ; even being goes through thinking “ – osho----sahjo in rajasthan { exact date unknown } who become an enlightened femail disciple of charandas and creat beauty full songs in his praise --------1700 --- baal shem tov in Poland . “ baal shem “ is an honorific title meaning “ master of the good name “ given to isrel ben eliezer of miedzyboz , who found the Hasidic mysytical branch of Judaism -------1757 william blake English romantic poet and artist --- 1768 – hakuin ekaku enlightened Japanese zen master -------- 1819 walt whitman the American poet -------------1828 leo Tolstoy contemporary Russian writers incluse Dostoyevsky , turgenev , gorky, Chekhov -------1836 ramakrishan born uin Bengal .. he attains enlightenment through meeting the itinerant monk totapuri after his dath his wife , shraddha , is recognized as a mystic in her own right and lives until 1920 -------------1844 friederich Nietzsche born in germany his major work “ thus spake zarathustra ‘ --------1853 vincent van gogh , genius of impressionist painting ----- 1860 abraham Lincoln ------------1879 ramana maharshi who becomes enlightened as a young man and astablishes an ashram at arunachala in south India his basic teaching is self – inquiry -- who am I ? ------------1900 vaslav nijinsky --------------sigmund freud the founder of psychoanalysis ---------------1913 bengali poet rabindranath tagore receives the nobel prize for literature for his poem ‘ gitanjali”--------------------- 1918 gertrude stein ---rationalist and playwright , her most famous saying is “ a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose in 1946 , just movements before dying , she ask ‘ what is the answer ? ‘ when no replies , she continues ‘ in that case , what is the question ? ‘ and pass away , smiling …----------1923 khalil gibran ------ 1922 george gurdjieff ---------1929 j . Krishnamurti disbands the ‘order of the star ‘ and declare that truth is a pathless path -----1969 meher baba dies in pune India . meher baba was born in 1894 in to a parsee family ans traveled widely both in India and abroad . after enlightenment he gathered many disciples but but remained in silence ---1990 osho … last but not on the list … H.P.Blavatsky the president and the founser of theosophical society ( I am a member of the society ) ----- anni bezant ---- Mary Magdalene or Mary of Magdala the most important woman in the movement of Jesus. --- and minakshi and rina a prostitute --- Kulavadhuta Satpurananda Started the spiritual journey at the age of five under Shri Shri Byom Shankar Aghori of Bakweshwar, West Bengal/India. Started practice of kulachara discipline, living in cremation grounds, meditating on corpses, attained siddhi of Anuttara objective practice under Dr. Ramnath Aghori and received the title of Khyapababa (Crazy Father) by the lineage holders of Shri Shri Bama Khyapa in the cremation ground of Tarapith (West Bengal/India), practiced and attained 'Ela' under Mastang Darbesh Shaha and received the title of Darbesh, from the age of twelve to eighteen. Started taking training and teaching of Advaita Vedanta, Shaiva-Shakta Vaishnava realisation, Zen, Shunyata and Mahamudra under Shri Shri Swanubhava Deva in Kolkata, from age eighteen to twenty-four. Received secret sanyasdiksha from Shri Shri Ma Anandamoyee and taken open renunciation at the age of twenty-four. Received the title of Swami Satpurananda Avadhuta from Shri Shri Swanubhava Deva, tricked into tantric marriage with Uma Devi by the Guru and kicked out to live alone and find out originality by the Guru, received the teachings of Sahaja (Existence As It Is) and empowerments by Sri Sri Brahmamoyee Ma (1993-94).

                      shrIpAdukA.m pUjayAmi ...
                      this is a very personal love afire............................ love ................and flow of wind say Adesh!
                      • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

                        Tue, August 25, 2009 - 6:13 PM
                        emotional-chicky....emotional-chicky.---i remember some thing -a song -- but what to do this to this topic under we talk --tantra --Osho's view on sexuality-------but some thing happening and i don't wont to stop happening ---yes ---this --yes this ---yes this is tantra -yes
                        this is -- yes ---i remember some thing -a song ------------Chick-chicky-boom
                        Chick-chicky-boom ---emotional-chicky....emotional-chicky -----Chick-chicky-boom-- enjoy -- see who is going to --enjoy -yes ---this --yes this ---yes this is tantra -yes --emotion exist and Non-Identity dose not exist --so Nirvana
                        Cuban Pete - Jim Carrey

                        They call me Cuban Pete,
                        I'm the king of the Rumba beat,
                        When I play the Maracas I go
                        Chick chicky boom
                        Chick chicky boom

                        Yes, sir, I'm Cuban Pete
                        I'm the craze, of my native street
                        When I start to dance, everything goes
                        Chick chicky boom
                        Chick chicky boom

                        The senorita's they sing,
                        And then they swing with their lumbaro.
                        It's very nice!
                        So full of spice
                        And when they dance and they bring a happy ring,
                        They're a care-o, singing a song....
                        All the day long!

                        So if you like the beat,
                        Take a lesson from Cuban Pete,
                        And I'll teach you to
                        Chick chicky boom
                        Chick chicky boom
                        Chick chicky boom!



                        Si Senorita, I know that you would like to chicky boom chick.
                        It's very nice!
                        So full of spice!
                        I place my hand on your hip and if you will just give me your hand,
                        Then we shall try,
                        Just you and I...AYE-AYE-AYE!
                        So if you like the beat,
                        Take a lesson from Cuban Pete,
                        And I'll teach you to
                        Chick chicky boom
                        Chick chicky boom
                        Chick chicky boom!


                        Pedro "Cuban Pete" Aguilar (June 14, 1927 – January 13, 2009[1]) was a Puerto Rican dancer, referred to as "the greatest Mambo dancer ever", by Life magazine and Tito Puente. His nickname, "Cuban Pete" was conferred upon him in 1949 in the famous dance hall "Palladium", New York in reference to the mambo classic song Cuban Pete by Desi Arnaz, and it was endorsed by Arnaz himself.
                        Aguilar won numerous prizes in Latin dancing during the Mambo era, together with his dance partner Millie Donay. He is a recipient of many prestigious awards for his work. Pete is the only Latin dancer recognized in the Latin Jazz exhibit at the Smithsonian Institution.
                        He continued to dance professionally, coach teams for competition, and was a judge for various Latin dance events. Barbara Craddock was his last dance partner (since 1998) and manager.
                        He, together with Barbara Craddock are inducted in the International Latin Music Hall of Fame.
                        On November 14, 2007 it was announced they were the recipients of the Latin Jazz USA Lifetime Achievement Awards at the 2007/08 Ms. Latina International Pageant, with the presentation scheduled to happen on December 22, 2007 at the Manuel Artime Theater, Miami, Florida. They were the first Latin dancers to receive this award.[2]
                        He died January 13, 2009 from heart failure at Sinai Plaza Rehabilitation & Nursing Center, Miami, Florida. Aguilar is survived by his daughters Denise Gerard and Petrina Aguilar, son Sean Peter Aguilar, granddaughter Gina Gerard and grandson Noah Aguilar.[1]
                        shrIpAdukA.m pUjayAmi ..

                        "Life is not a tragedy, it is a comedy. To be alive means to have a sense of humor, to have a deep, loving quality, to have playfulness." Osho

                        "If you really want to know who I am,
                        you will have to be absolutely empty as I am.
                        Then two mirrors will be facing each other,
                        and only emptiness will be mirrored."
                        osho---

                        may be you understand may be not......... but this is my undressing an this is my quote which represent my understanding so again .....
                        ........i pray .. i am a fool designer.......... so i create a god............ an ...........i say " silence (Nirvana) is the language of God, .............................not mine an very few people can understand this not me ................ all else is poor translation.................................................. an......... i pray to god............ " my Life is not a tragedy, it is a comedy. To be alive means to have a sense of humor, to have a deep, loving quality, to have playfulness."
                        please blesses me with this ........ because this is what i don't have in reality so please god i pray for this ...
                        i am a fool designer know there is no god .... there is no blessing. ........ so who is going to understand my joke

                        "Seriousness is a sickness; your sense of
                        humor makes you more human, more
                        humble. The sense of humor -- according
                        to me -- is one of the most essential
                        parts of religiousness."

                        "To be alone in the only real revolution.
                        To accept that you are alone is the greatest
                        transformation that can happen to you."

                        "Experience life in all possible ways --
                        good-bad, bitter-sweet, dark-light,
                        summer-winter. Experience all the dualities.
                        Don't be afraid of experience, because
                        the more experience you have, the more
                        mature you become."
                        osho-------

                        "Truth cannot be defined, although it
                        can certainly be experienced. But
                        experience is not a definition. A
                        definition is made by the mind, experience
                        comes through participating. If somebody
                        asks, "What is a dance?" how can you
                        define it? But you can dance and you
                        can know the inner feel of it. God is
                        the ultimate dance."
                        osho---
                        ilike to say like this ]

                        so if some one ask what a tantra is tantra is ? tantra cannot be defined, although it
                        can certainly be experienced. But
                        experience is not a definition. A
                        definition is made by the mind, experience
                        comes through participating. If somebody
                        asks, "What is a tantra?" how can you
                        define it? But you can go in tantra and you
                        can know the inner feel of it. tantra is
                        the ultimate dance."
                        after
                        accept that you are alone is the greatest
                        transformation that can happen to you."
                        and then tantra start to know other and after knowing other tnatra starts to know self and tnatra remain for infinite this is yes .. this is then a song born .. a music come ... then a great panting come a poetry come ---every creation take a place in tnatra because there is a no question of Identity. or non -Identity. before this every thing ..............is ...................identity. or non -Identity............ after this every thing.. is ................identity. or non -Identity
                        only change metamorphosis of self and other but tantra goes beyond metamorphosis and Psychedelic experience ....identity. or non -Identity..... experience ........ it's a pure reality and shiva and parvati ... communication which start --- every in human most of spiritual journey start with self and end with self enlightenment or nirvana and every thing stop but my experience say in tantra -spiritual journey start with self to know and a wonder about self and acceptance that you are alone is the greatest
                        transformation that can happen to you .. it is right .. and then know infinite ... and i know only a tantra can guide after this because shiva and parvati ... communication which start .after this ... now you have to read this book Vigyan Bhairav Tantra by Osho ..or a any of books of osho ................... according to the Teachings, the passage of this osho book to those ready for the
                        instruction will attract the attention of such as are prepared to receive the Teaching. And,
                        likewise, when the pupil is ready to receive the truth, then will this little osho's book come to him, or
                        her. Such is The Law. The Hermetic Principle of Cause and Effect, in its aspect of The Law
                        of Attraction, will bring lips and ear together–pupil and osho's book in company. So mote it be!
                        ...or you are going to be do spiritual Suicide which is nirvana a non -Identity

                        osho create a jump bored from where u can jump ................ and enjoy for infinite no one like him and no one going to be --- he is unique like every one in a nature a existence this nature a existence did not need a guru ..a god .. a facilitator but human need thats great and
                        you

                        khapa baba from last three years only one-thing repeating
                        I am a Osho-lover and for a time being back in time me and Osho met in the same Aghori congregation with Paglababa as his Guru / fecilitator (?), as you know well Paglababa (Pagolnathji) and me are guru-brothers.
                        Now the question is was Osho a Guru in the sense of the real term?
                        Did he train up disciples with individual care?
                        Did he at all make a generation to support his 'profound' teachings?
                        Did Osho himself practice that?
                        Did you Mark yourself practiced it and accomplished in what Osho says and you appreciate?
                        Do you know anyone who has accomplished in it from Osho's teachings and train ups?


                        why you need a osho ?

                        you need osho because osho create a jump bored from where u can jump and enjoy for infinite no one like him and no one going to be --- he is unique like every one in a nature this nature did not need a guru ....a god .. a facilitator ...... but human need thats great ............ so i am hear to be a guru ...a facilitator ...a friend ... now i like to remove this .. word... guru ...a facilitator ... and like to be a friend and like to go in to a comedy. To be alive means to have a sense of humor, to have a deep, loving quality, to have playfulness."

                        as a friend i like to say take a osho sannyas to enjoy a feeling of nirvana a non -Identity. now you can take a sannyas on internet all so on www.neosannyas.org because it is very your very personal love afire you and internet no one going to know about you r nirvana as you say I am a Osho-lover

                        "Life is not a tragedy, it is a comedy. To be alive means to have a sense of humor, to have a deep, loving quality, to have playfulness." Osho
                        George Ivanovich Gurdjieff
                        shrIpAdukA.m pUjayAmi ...
                        To destroy, mercilessly, without any compromises whatsoever, in the mentation and feelings of the reader, the beliefs and views, by centuries rooted in him, about everything existing in the world.
                        osho
                        George Ivanovich Gurdjieff
                        shrIpAdukA.m pUjayAmi ...
                        To acquaint the reader with the material required for a new creation and to prove the soundness and good quality of it.
                        osho
                        George Ivanovich Gurdjieff
                        shrIpAdukA.m pUjayAmi ...
                        To assist the arising, in the mentation and in the feelings of the reader, of a veritable, non-fantastic representation not of that illusory world which he now perceives, but of the world existing in reality
                        Osho
                        George Ivanovich Gurdjieff
                        shrIpAdukA.m pUjayAmi
                        according to the thought of one of the sayings of popular wisdom I have just remembered, handed down to our days from very ancient times,
                        "Any prayer may be heard and granted by the Higher Powers only if it is uttered thrice:
                        George Ivanovich Gurdjieff


                        "Life is not a tragedy, it is a comedy. To be alive means to have a sense of humor, to have a deep, loving quality, to have playfulness." Osho


                        this is what i don't have in reality
                        i am very honest to my self
                        so again i am a fool designer so i create a god an i say " silence (Nirvana) is the language of God, not mine an very few people can understand this not me .. all else is poor translation an i pray to god " my Life is not a tragedy, it is a comedy. To be alive means to have a sense of humor, to have a deep, loving quality, to have playfulness." please blesses me with this ........ because this is what i don't have in reality so please god i pray for this ...


                        i am a fool designer so i create a god an i say " silence (Nirvana) is the language of God, not mine an very few people can understand this not me .. all else is poor translation an i pray to god " my Life is not a tragedy, it is a comedy. To be alive means to have a sense of humor, to have a deep, loving quality, to have playfulness." please blesses me with this ........ because this is what i don't have in reality so please god i pray for this ...

                        i am a fool designer so i create a god an i say " silence (Nirvana) is the language of God, not mine an very few people can understand this not me .. all else is poor translation an i pray to god " my Life is not a tragedy, it is a comedy. To be alive means to have a sense of humor, to have a deep, loving quality, to have playfulness." please blesses me with this ........ because this is what i don't have in reality so please god i pray for this ...

                        and all reader i know you r a Buddha
                        so
                        you all Buddha
                        shrIpAdukA.m pUjayAmi
                        you all Buddha
                        shrIpAdukA.m pUjayAmi
                        you all Buddha
                        shrIpAdukA.m pUjayAmi



                        i am a fool designe name swami bodhi vasant osho sannyas to enjoy a feeling of nirvana a non -Identity. and silence (Nirvana) is the language of God, not mine an very few people can understand this not me .
                        :
                        this is a very personal love afire............................ love ................and flow of wind say Adesh!
                        • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

                          Tue, August 25, 2009 - 6:54 PM
                          now i am Carry on ......... conclusion don't needed ..................
                          this is a very personal love afire............................ love ................and flow of wind say Adesh!!!!!!!!!
            • Re: Osho's view on sexuality

              Tue, August 18, 2009 - 5:57 AM
              Interesting dichotomy, religion and porn. All the major religions are anti-sex, to one degree or another. The monotheistic religions are particularly misogynistic and puritanical. Yet porn flourishes - in the age of the Internet it is ubiquitous. When the false dichotomy dissolves, the two become One - sex, the flesh - and Spirit - united. Which is the Tantric way.