What is kundalini?
``Kundalini'' literally means coiling, like a snake. In the classical literature of hatha yoga kundalini is described as a coiled serpent at the base of the spine. The image of coiling, like a spring, conveys the sense of untapped potential energy. Perhaps more meaningfully kundalini can be described as a great reservoir of creative energy at the base of the spine.
It's not useful to sit with our consciousness fixed in our head and think of kundalini as a foreign force running up and down our spine. Unfortunately the serpent image may serve to accentuate this alien nature of the image. It's more useful to think of kundalini energy as the very foundation of our consciousness so that when kundalini moves through our bodies our consciousness necessarily changes with it.
The concept of kundalini can also be examined from a strictly psychological perspective. From this perspective kundalini can be thought of as a rich source of psychic or libidinous energy in our unconscious.
In the classical literature of Kashmir Shaivism kundalini is described in three different manifestions. The first of these is as the universal energy or para-kundalini. The second of these is as the energizing function of the body-mind complex or prana-kundalini. The third of these is as consciousness or shakti-kundalini which simultaneously subsumes and intermediates between these two. Ultimately these three forms are the same but understanding these three different forms will help to understand the differerent manifestations of kundalini.
What is the difference between prana and kundalini? What is the difference between qi (or chi) and kundalini?
First let us try to relate to concepts from the same tradition - prana and kundalini. Prana has been translated as the ``vital breath'' and ``bio-energetic motility''; it is associated with maintaining the functioning of the mind and body. Kundalini, in its form as prana-kundalini, is identical to prana ; however, Kundalini also has a manifestations as consciousness and a as a unifying cosmic energy. One could ascribe these same aspects to prana as well so past a certain point these become distinctions without differences.
From the subjective standpoint of an individual actually experiencing the awakening of kundalini I have found three completely different opinions:
The first opinion is that a pranic awakening is only a prelude to a full kundalini awakening. Tibetan yogins that I have encountered consider the activation of prana (Tibetan: rlung) as merely a prerequisite for the activation of kundalini (Tibetan: gTummo). What's attractive about this viewpoint is that it explains the difference between the experience of simply having pleasant sensations in the spine and the much more powerful experience of having a ``freight-train''-like full kundalini experience.
The second opinion, espoused by Swami Shivom Tirth for example, is that prana and kundalini are absolutely equivalent and that it is not meaningful in any way to describe a difference between kundalini rising and prana rising. When posed with question as to how to distinguish between pleasant sensations that show some pranic-activity in the spine and the much more powerful experience Swami Shivom Tirth said that the difference is not in the nature of the activity but in the consciousness that observes it. If the consciousness that experiences the pranic activity is seated within the spine (or more correctly, the central channel, known as the sushumna), then the experience is felt much more powerfully.
The third opinion, espoused by the modern hatha yogin, Desikaran, is that pranic awakening is the true experience to be aimed for and kundalini is actually an obstruction. Desikaran sees the kundalini as a block in the central channel and thus the kundalini must be ``killed'' to make way for the prana. This is the most unusual view of the three.
The Chinese concept of qi (or chi) can be safely identified with the Indian concept of prana.
If all this seems confusing - don't worry, you're in good company. My conclusion is that these are all different terminologies for dealing with a common set of experiences. Any one of these viewpoints is adequate for describing the full range of experiences. What is probably more relevant is to distinguish two different experiences which are often confused. In one an individual experiences some pleasant energizing electric energy running along the spine. This experience itself brings about a wide range of experiences and results in vitality and sensitivity.
Another very distinct experience is the experience of kundalini entering the sushumna and rising up the spine. As soon as kundalini enters the sushumna this experience will completely overwhelm ordinary waking consciousness. From the moment that kundalini enters the sushumna there will no longer be a distrinction between the subjective consciousness which experiences and the object of experience. This experience much more profoundly transfigures consciousness.
If kundalini is universal, why do some kundalini yogins seem to have more kundalini-energy than others?
It's an intriguing question. If an individual's kundalini is viewed as simply a personal reservoir of a cosmic energy then why would one person appear to have more of a reservoir of kundalini energy than another? Nevertheless, this does appear to be the case. This is probably another advantage of the viewpoint that prana (or qi) is the same as kundalini.
Some Chinese texts distinguish between ``innate qi'' or ``pre-natal qi'' that one is born with and ``cultivated qi'' that can be developed. Clearly some people simply have more ``innate qi.'' This manifests as a stronger more resilient body and greater general vitality.
Through training those that have relatively weak ``innate qi'' may surpass those who have strong ``innate qi'' but do not train. There are many stories in the Chinese literature of Qi Gong about people who took up Qi Gong in order to improve their poor health became powerful martial artists or great qi gong masters. Of course those that have strong ``innate qi'' and also train their qi may develop the strongest qi of all.
What does kundalini have to do with spiritual enlightenment? What is the goal of kundalini yoga?
First we need a few concepts: In yogic anatomy the sushumna is the central channel and conduit for the kundalini energy that runs along our spine and up to the crown of our head. Along this channel are placed additional channel networks called cakras. These cakras are associated with major aspects of our anatomy - for example our throat, heart, solar plexus, and in turn these aspects of our anatomy are related to aspects of our human nature.
According to the literature of kundalini yoga our experience of these centers is limited due to knots which restrict the flow of energy into these centers. Three knots are particuarly important. The knot of Brahma which restricts the center at the base of the spine. The knot of Vishnu which restricts the heart center and the knot of Rudra which restricts the center between the eyebrows. These knots form an important framework in yogic thinking and the stages toward enlightenment are articulated in terms of breaking through these knots in the yogic classic the Hatha Yoga Pradipika as well as in some of the yoga upanishads. Specifically, four stages of progress are described:
arambha
ghata
parichaya
nishpatti
Arambha is associated with breaking the knot of Brahma and the awakening of kundalini.
Ghata is associated with breaking the knot of Vishnu and and with internal absorption.
Parichaya the absorption deepens and in
nishpatti the knot of Rudra is pierced and the kundalini may ascend to the center at the crown of the head. In this state transcendence is integrated and, according to the yogic liteature, the yogi has nothing more to attain.
Putting these elaborate physiological decriptions aside, the goal of kundalini yoga is the same as the goal of any legimitate spiritual practice: To be liberated from the limited bounds of the self-centered and alienated ego. In kundalini yoga this is associated with internal manifestations of the kundalini but the external manifestations should be similar to any other legitiimate spiritual practice.
So does everyone agree that kundalini awakening is necessary for enlightenment?
The view that kundalini awakening is necessary for enlightenment is held in the diverse literature of Kashmir Shaivism and in other Hindu Tantric literature. It is found in the literature of the Hatha Yogis and the Nath Sampradaya. You will find similar views in many Buddhist Tantric works. In addition this view is held by recent spiritual figures such as Shri Ramakrishna, Swami Sivananda, Paramahamsa Yogananda and Swami Vivekananda and of course by contemporary kundalini yogins themselves.
Nevertheless there are some dissenters from this view. These include Sri Chinmoy, Da Free John and Gurdjieff. Dissent can take a number of different forms. For Gurjieff kundalini is associated only with a binding force that leads us to be more attached to the world. Such a view of kundalini is not entirely inaccurate but only reflects the functioning of kundalini in the lower energy centers. For Sri Chinmoy kundalini is an amplifying function that may make an individual more powerful but not more enlightened. From my perspective this also only addresses the impact of kundalini while it operates in the lower energy centers.
Da Free John (born Franklin Jones, a. k. a. Da Love Ananda) has a much more fundamental criticism of kundalini. As far as I understand his position, for him enlightenment cannot be the result of an experience; it is a cognitive transformation. Kundalini may evoke a wide variety of experiences but these are not in and of themselves enlightening. This is an interesting perspective but it seems to assume that the raising of kundalini is an experience in which an ego-consciousness experiences a separate object known as kundalini. Again, this view is consistent with the experience of kundalini in the lower energy centers in which the ego is detached from the movement of kundalini and kundalini experiences are precieved as separate from oneself. However, I would argue that as kundalini rises the ego-consciousness becomes infused in a more fundamental consciousness of cit-shakti-kundalini and this experience does in fact produce a fundamental cognitive change.
Finally, there are many other spiritual practices, such as Zen, Vipassana meditation that consider kundalini irrelevant. Some practitioners or even teachers of these paths, such as Jiyu Kennet, may have kundalini experiences but generally kundalini is not a pivotal part of these paths.
Can I use kundalini yoga simply to improve my health?
Yoga exercises which were traditionally used to purify the body in preparation for awakening the kundalini can also be used simply to improve the health. To practice techniques aimed at actively awakening kundalini with the goal of simply improving your health seems to be a misuse of these powerful techniques.
There are those that teach kundalini yoga principally emphasizing its benefits on health without much discussion of the spiritual benefits. This is how hatha yoga has been taught in the west for some time. The affect of this approach depends on the attitude of the student. There is certainly nothing wrong with trying to improve your health but there is a tension between awakening an energy that will ultimately burn up the ego and trying to shape that energy to simply fulfill an ego-oriented motive.
Is there any scientific basis for kundalini and the cakras? Do I really have to believe that all these cakras physically exist?
Research on kundalini is especially spotty. There is no compelling work to show that the system represents insights into actual human anatomy. But it's important to understand that kundalini and its network of channels and cakras is simply how yogins have chosen to explain their experience and that yogins from many cultures have arrived at similar, though not identical, concepts. The true physical mechanisms underlying these experiences may be very different from those described. Izaak Benthov has proposed a model to explain kundalini in terms of micro- motion in the brain. In this model experiences are associated with parts of the body, such as the heart, because the part of the brain associated with that part of the body is stimulated by micro-vibrations. His model is treated in ``The Kundalini Experience'' by Sannella referenced below. From a practical perspective the key thing is our subjective experience and that the roadmap of these subjective experiences has been mapped out.
Is Chinese qi gong a kind of kundalini yoga?
If there is any contemporary teaching that is even more diverse in approach than kundalini yoga it must be qi gong. As a result it is hard to compare kundalini yoga to qi gong. From my limited exposure to qi gong it is clear there are many qi gong practices that are identical to kundalini yoga practices. What is also clear is that may qi gong practitioners have reported experiences that are identical to those of kundalini yogins. In so far as each of these practices aims at eliminating blocks to the qi/prana energy then they share a common ground.
What about Tibetan Buddhism - has kundalini been known in Tibet?
Kundalini yoga in the Natha Sampradaya and Vajrayana in Tibetan Buddhism both take their origin from the Mahasiddhas who were active in India from the 8th century to the 12th century. Kundalini yoga practices formed the core of the teachings of a number of these Mahasiddhas and are strongly represented in both Tibetan Buddhist practices and contemporary kundalini yoga practices. Kundalini yoga was spoken of as ``Candali yoga'' by these Mahasiddhas and became known as gTummo rnal 'byor in Tibet. Candali yoga was a key practice of the famous Tibetan yogin Milarepa. The role of kundalini yoga in Tibetan Buddhism is discussed in more detail in the Kundalini Yogas FAQ.
Are there any other traditions that show awareness of kundalini?
If you believe that kundalini is at the basis of spiritual progress then every valid spiritual tradition must have some awareness of kundalini. Christianity (especially Quakerism and Pentecostalism), Sufism, Qabalistic mysticism, alchemy and magick all have literature which demonstrates some awareness of the kundalini process but these traditions are not, to this author's awareness, so open in their exposition of the techniques and so it is hard to judge the depth of understanding latent in these traditions. Nevertheless, the imagery is so unmistakable in these traditions that each must have, at least at one time, been conversant with the movement of kundalini.
So how do I awaken kundalini?
Indirectly kundalini can be awakened by devotion, by selfless service, or by intellectual enquiry. In these paths the blocks to the awakening of kundalini are slowly removed. Occasionally, individuals on these paths will experience a sudden awakening of kundalini but generally because the blocks are slowly and gently removed kundalini-like experiences evolve slowly in these paths.
Broadly speaking there are two radically different direct approaches to awakening kundalini. One approach requires initiation by a guru and relies upon a technique called shaktipat, or ``descent of shakti.'' It is variously called: Siddha Mahayoga, Kundalini Mahayoga or Sahaja Yoga (Spontaneous Yoga). These approaches are treated in the Siddha Mahayoga FAQ. The other approach uses intentional yogic techniques . The styles using intentional techniques include Mantra Yoga, Hatha Yoga, Laya Yoga or Kriya Yoga. These approaches are treated in the Kundalini Yogas FAQ .
Fundamentally the approach of Siddha Mahayoga and the Kundalini Yogas are different. In Siddha Mahayoga the guru awakens the kundalini and after that the core of the practice is the inactive and non-willful surrender to kundalini. In Kundalini Yogas the will is used to awaken the kundalini and to guide its progress. Clearly these are different approaches.
Nevertheless, elements of the each approach occur in the practices of the other. Siddha Mahayogins may use asanas, pranayamas and other hatha yoga practices. On the other hand gurus in Kundalini Yoga may give infusions of shakti to their students to help them at particular points in their practice.
What are the advantages and disadvantages of using effort, in kundalini yogas, as opposed to the grace of the guru, in siddha mahayoga, to awaken kundalini?
Since every practitioner brings his own unique inclinations and obstacles to the practice of yoga it is very hard to generalize on this point. In terms of actually awakening kundalini gurus of Siddha Mahayoga claim that the kundalini is more easily and reliably awakened by the grace of the guru than by individual effort. In my limited experience I would agree. with this assertion. While not every long-term student of either practice necessarily shows signs of kundalini awakening it is amazing how many people have had instant awakenings of kundalini through initiation from siddha gurus.
In terms of encountering difficulties along the path the siddha gurus would also claim that fewer problems due to kundalini awakening, such as mental imbalance, are encountered by students of Siddha Mahayoga. Here I think the results are mixed. It seems to me that the guidance of the teacher in either Siddha Mahayoga or Kundalini Yoga is more a determining factor than which style of kundalini practice is employed.
Generally speaking each style of practice has its strengths and weakness. The strength of Siddha Mahayoga is the ease with which it awakens the kundalini. The weakness is that because the kundalini is so easily awakened by the guru students of Siddha Mahayoga often have completely undisciplined personal meditation practices. Time is spent instead to trying to recreate some of their initial experiences by following the guru around hoping for his or her grace Some people spend 20 or more years in this manner without ever developing an inner core of practice or experience.
The strength of the family of Kundalini Yogas is that the progress is at least apparently more under the control of the student of the yoga. These students seem more likely to have disciplined personal practices and more of an understanding of how the practice relates to their own experience.
Unfortunately for some students this leads to a fairly egotistical approach to their practice and ultimately the kundalini energy is used to bolster the ego rather than to merge the ego in bliss.
What are the signs of an awakened kundalini?
Briefly, according to classical literature the signs of an awakened kundalini can be grouped into: mental signs, vocal signs and physical signs. Mental signs can include visions that range from ecstatically blissful to terrifyingly frightful. Vocal signs can include spontaneous vocal expressions that range from singing or reciting mantras to make various animals sounds such as growling or chirping. Physical signs include trembling, shaking and spontaneously performing hatha yoga postures and pranayamas.
From a more subjective perspective the more pleasant experiences associated with a kundalini awakening may include: waves of bliss, periods of elation, glimpses of transcendental consciousness. The less pleasant experiences associated with a kundalini awakening may include: trembling, sharp aches in areas associated with the cakras, periods of irrational anxiety, sudden flashes of heat.
Are these methods of awakening kundalini dangerous? What about Gopi Krishna's books?
If we take the psychological perspective and view kundalini as the power latent in our unconscious then it is easy to understand that awakening this force is going to bring a greater amount of unconscious material into our consciousness. Even in the best of circumstances this is likely to be uncomfortable and if an individual is barely coping with his unconscious even under normal circumstances then awakening kundalini may push the individual over into psychosis. This phenomenon has been documented many times.
Forceful methods of awakening kundalini pose additional dangers. Because quite forceful methods can be used to awaken kundalini these techniques themselves are potentially physically and mentally disruptive. An individual named Gopi Krishna awakened his kundalini by doing unguided meditation on his crown cakra. His life after awakening was both blessed by ecstatic bliss and tormented by physical and mental discomfort. Eventually his experience stabilized. He wrote down his experiences in a recently re-released autbiography entitled ``Living with Kundalini.'' Gopi Krishna's autobiography appears to be an honest representation of his experiences but it is only one extreme datapoint in the panorama of experience on kundalini yoga. It represents dangers in forceful unguided practice but it is not representative of a typical practicioner's experience.
But even if kundalini is dangerous, isn't it a faster way to enlighenment?
First of all it may be useful to observe that there is no technique currently known on earth that appears to be rapidly catapulting large number of individuals toward enlightenment. Because kundalini yogas deal so directly with a powerful enlightening force it seems natural that they would be ``faster'', but there appears to be alot of tortoise and hare phenomena at work with newbie kundalini yogins. Many people begin kundalini yogas, have strong initial experiences and then become frightened. Many who perservere through this initial phase become distracted by the energy and focus on temporal and phenomenal applications of the energy.
There have been many scandals among kundalini yoga teachers - particularly sexual scandals. Is there a correlation between sexual scandals and kundalini yoga practice?
There have been scandals regarding the teachers of many paths, both spiritual and non-spiritual ; however, it is probably fair to say that kundalini yogins have had more than their share. Since the first publication of these frequently-asked-questions in 1994 more than one well-known kundalini yoga teacher has been implicated in having clandestine affairs with students and has been asked to step down from his position as spiritual leader as a result.
An advanced kundalini yogin is typically a powerful charismatic individual who has the ability to directly influence the minds of others. Westerners often mistake this power as a sign of enlightenment and allow such teachers liberties as a result.
In addition it is quite common for kundalini yoga to temporarily accentuate the sex drive. This period requires extra discipline. Finally, kundalini yoga is closely associated with tantrism and sex is often used in conjunction with tantric practice. Where sex is used there is of course the opportunity for misuse or abuse.
If my kundalini is awakened will I need to change my lifestyle?
It's hard to have your cake and eat it too. If you awaken kundalini in order to change and enrich your life it's reasonable to expect you may need to change your lifestyle as a result. The recommendations of both classical literature and experience is that sleep and diet will need to be moderated otherwise severe discomfort may arise. Furthermore without moderating sexual activity and physical work it will be hard to experience much success with kundalini. The extent that these elements of your life need to change depends on the nature of the individual. While genuine mental imbalances arising from kundalini are rare nearly every kundalini yogin will find periods when one needs to be especially sensitive to needs for sleep, quiet and diet
-
Deliberate plagiarism?
Wed, April 16, 2008 - 10:26 AM
This article was written and is copyrighted by my friend Kurt Keutzer. What is truly sad is that Kurt has given permission to freely distribute the file *provided* that credit is given to him as author and that it is posted unchanged. www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~keutze...faq.html
By deliberately editing out Kurt's name, you seem to be trying to get people to believe that you are the author. I believe this is connected to your claim to be an expert on yoga and kundalini (or, as you profile claims, a "Lineage GURU")...
But, if you need to plagiarize to seem knowledgeable, how competent of a "GURU" can you really be?
The real information about this faq is:
______________________________________________
Kundalini FAQ
KUNDALINI: FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS AND SELECTED REFERENCES
Version 2.01, June 2002
Copyright Kurt Keutzer, 2002 (keutzer@eecs.berkeley.edu)
The author grants the right to copy and distribute this file, provided it remains unmodified and original authorship and copyright is retained. Adding tasteful artwork is encouraged. Please do not change the title (in html) of this document. The author retains both the right and intention to modify and extend this document.
This FAQ gives a background on the phenomenon of kundalini and is assumed material before reading the other related articles:
Siddha Mahayoga FAQ
Kundalini Yogas FAQ
The Siddha Mahayoga Tradition of Swami Shivom Tirth
www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~keutze...faq.html -
-
Re: Deliberate plagiarism?
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 1:24 AMi have given clearification of this in OSHO tribe.
i do agree that it is artical of Mr.Kurt Keutzer and no where i have claimed to be author of it. i just posted it for more circulation.
OM -
-
Re: Deliberate plagiarism?
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 8:01 AMCould you please clarify why you removed Kurt's name, his copyright information, and his distribution conditions from the top of the article?
Could you also explain why you violated Kurt's conditions of distribution by changing the title?
Thank you,
Ryan -
-
Re: Deliberate plagiarism?
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 11:34 AMhahaha a word is meant to convey a psychic message or meaning, a word comes from a thought, a thought comes from a desired action attempting manifestation, the thought comes from a frequency not a 'personality' or uniqueness of being, using words porperly creates communication and synchronization of mental states and shares a binding vibration; boundaries are like energetic restrictions and blockages just as kundalini in the spine before it is conscious it is channeled into grooves of bad habits or future gifts, to eat food for energy, to have a women for love, these are unneccesary boundaries and restrictions to the desired mental result. copyright? who has the right to own a thought? to truly own a thought is to truly own ones mind as a frequency receiver and to choose the vibrations properly, unconditional love means unbinding your acceptance of situations and especially the sharing of energies without labels and limitations, the infinite possibilites of an openly created reality ensue where we dont pass on the boundaries imposed upon us consciously or subconcious in a dominant submissive write wrong argumentative setting which is the same as a formerly beaten child 'growing' up and beating his own kid, but a different more subtle word/thought/personality/soceity virus of a conditioned mind surrounded by fearful situations of ownership where people still beleive objects are owned beyond their useful usage, in this case i enjoyed the article and i always enjoy unlabeled undefined mirror like advice where i can read out one of the infinite number of meanings and apply it to my energy, ownership is a huge roadblock which creates values burdens and B.s. india has the right idea but we need to keep reading and looking outside these boxes of limitations until we too can simply explain our intentions by D.J.ing others advice with loving copy-pasta extensions and reflections of archetypial thoughts which have all been used before at some point. or are the tools of words and thought such that by haveing A boundary reinforceing one you must stick to it after its obvious correction by yourself, thought inertia post-correction or plargarism on the mind? we should have more posts 'i beleive; which analyse the literary nature and revealing value judgements within posts in order to create a more clear and communicative dialogue,. and i would also like to say I love you and have whole intentions in this post so please disregard the semantic slightly un-sacred(always unsacred when you percive it to be) medium of words you of course are not the thoughts you express but should watch the frequency. otherwise there is no reason in reinforcing a thought which does not involve casting the spell of a necessarry action or communication, the fact is like a classroom filled with rowdy children we should make some thoughts have the responsibility of policing the others and values of everykind are only found in cultural soceity's oppressive gears of mind. -
-
Re: Deliberate plagiarism?
Mon, April 21, 2008 - 10:36 PMI admit that I could have handled this in a more loving way. I have personally been plagiarized several times, and it is a bit of a sore spot for me. It appears unlikely that YMG will take ownership for (what I perceived as) any inappropriate actions but I am perfectly willing to leave this issue alone and make no further posts about it.
Moreover, I am willing acknowledge my own inappropriate actions. I should have written it a much more moderated tone, and was too quick to speculate about his motivation. I am truly sorry I didn’t deal with it in a more compassionate manner.
I handled it poorly, and I admit it.
Warm wishes,
Ryan
PS
I have no problem with people putting articles I've written on their websites etc, but I do expect my name (and the date it was written) to be included. Researching and writing articles can be a lot of work, and authors deserve to receive credit for their efforts. -
-
Re: Deliberate plagiarism?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 1:25 AMNo need to apologize Ryan. Plagarism is just that... plagarism. If someone "accidentally" forgets to ascribe authorship to an article it's probably not an "accident". Please don't let philosophical double-talk obscure the issue. I was going to comment on the article, but considering that it was "cockroached" (as we say in Hawai'i)... I think I'll pass. Please don't be afraid to stand your ground when you sense that you are correct. -
-
Re: Deliberate plagiarism?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 9:18 AMI agree with Herbnerd. As an author, I spend hours doing research, and for someone to steal my work is just that: theft. I feel the same way about other people's work being stolen. Nor do I feel that "I posted the credit somewhere else" is a legitimate answer. You may have posted credit somewhere else, but you posted the article here. It's not that difficult to include a couple of lines. If you didn't mean to be a thief, in this case you could have had a real simple solution. You could have written, "Oops! I goofed. Sorry. Thanks, Ryan, for posting the info." However that was not done.
I would generalize this to what is, unfortunately, illegal acts performed by many people. They seem to feel if something is on the internet it can be copied and reposted freely. This is NOT true. The minute someone writes something it has a copyright, even if no documentation is filed. In this case, the original author gave authorization to copy and reproduce WITH CERTAIN CONDITIONS. In other cases--especially when articles are posted to websites that clearly have a copyright claim listed--copying and pasting an article under any circumstances is simply theft. Theoretically, the victim of the theft could sue the thief AND the site where the stolen material was posted. If you steal material under copyright and post it on your favorite site, theoretically you could be responsible for having that site closed down. "I didn't know. Everybody else does it" is not a legal defense for such theft.
There is something called "fair use." Fair use does not mean you can copy and past a thousand-word article and ask "What do people think about this?" Fair use would mean included a FEW sentences from an article as a part of what you are saying and in support of your claims, rather than being the entire focus. For example you could write "Joe Jnana made an incredible comment on his site as ---URL---. He claimed XYZ. Now, I (dis)agree with this because of ABC. What do other people think?"
Personally, I think the illegal copy and pasting so many people do is not based on malice, but on ignorance of the law and being too lazy to put out their own ideas. Unfortunately, lack of malice and laziness are not excuses for breaking the law. "I didn't mean to break the window to that store and steal the watches in the window" won't keep you out of the legal system.
Namaste! -
-
Re: Deliberate plagiarism?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 10:45 AMHi Shambhalanath,
Thanks for taking the time to make such an informative post. It is worth noting that copyright does expire, and very large amounts of material exist in the "public domain". Some authors will actually deliberately put what they write in the public domain (in which case the document will clearly state such). Dover specializes in publishing "public domain" materials. Also, in addition to "fair use", US copyright law has "special exemptions" (such as section 108). For instance, I have received photocopies and/or PDFs of copyrighted materials from the Library of Congress, Proquest, and JSTOR etc for research purposes. Finally, the Internet is a multinational media and the copyright laws of other countries do differ somewhat.
However, quite apart from legal issues, there are the *more fundamental* issues of fairness and ethics. Whether something is exempted because it is in the "public domain", or is "fair use", a "special exemption" or is hosted/published in a country with different laws, it is still only ethical and fair to give proper attribution. Giving others credit for their work is a principle that should be observed irregardless of whether the laws of a country allow something to be copied or republished. At least that is my humble opinion...
People with questions about US copyright law can go here: www.copyright.gov/
Best regards,
Ryan -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Deliberate plagiarism?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 11:06 AMThen again, as westerners, we are often very invested in the importance and validity of our opinions, in whatever form they take and medium they find expression.
~V~ -
-
Re: Deliberate plagiarism?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 11:13 AM>>Then again, as westerners, we are often very invested in the importance
>>and validity of our opinions
If you believe people in Asia (in general) are any less "invested in the importance and validity of their opinions" I can only assume you haven't had many conversations with Asians. ;-)
Warm Regards,
Ryan -
-
Re: Deliberate plagiarism?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 11:21 AMYeah?
They've never struck me as being the same kind of stupid as what is found here, even the obnoxious super entitled British Bourgeoisie version of said group.
They sure don't seem to be obsessively consumed with Tantra blather either...just in feeding the little materialist monkey on their backs , yelling into their ear buy more shit becasue you are better!
Perhaps they will (re)discover Tantra after they've finished mimicking "western values" for a while.
:)
-
-
Re: Deliberate plagiarism?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 12:43 PM>>They've never struck me as being the same kind of stupid as what is
>>found here, even the obnoxious super entitled British Bourgeoisie version of said group.
I was merely commenting on the strength of their opinions and their belief in the validity of those opinions . . .
The Tibetan, Okinawan, Japanese, Chinese and Indian teachers I have studied something with have *all* had very strongly held opinions. Indeed, they were often far more adamant about the validity of those opinions than any (Western) college professor I ever had!
As to whether they manifest the same kind of stupid as us, I agree that they mostly don't seem to do so. Rather, they seem to have their own homegrown kinds of stupid ;-)
I certainly acknowledge a wide range of differences between various cultures (including between the various so-called "Eastern” cultures). I just have *never* found strength of opinions to be one of those cultural differences
Because many Asians seem very polite (by Western standards) some people may end up with the *misperception* that their opinions may lack the same depth of conviction. I believe strongly that this would be a mistaken impression.
Later,
Ryan -
-
Re: Deliberate plagiarism?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 12:55 PMYes Ryan: generally speaking, I think they are as invested in appearances as we are, but I feel it is often expressed differently.
I guess one question that comes to mind is what form their narcissism takes in comparison to our version
~V~ -
-
Re: Deliberate plagiarism?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 1:35 PMHi~V~
I think see where you are coming from much more clearly now. I can't say that I have actually reflected on the question you raised, so I don't know what I think just yet...
However, I can say that one teacher (who was perhaps the most gifted martial artist I've ever seen) was very ego-driven. The others all seem to be fairly humble with respect to their very noteworthy accomplishments. So, if I were to give an "off the cuff" response I would say that narcissism is probably significantly less of a factor, but is still a factor.
Ryan
-
Deliberate plagiarism my version of your spirituality?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 1:37 PMI find it rather odd that westerners can be so ego-protective on notions of Non-western spirituality.
I find it ironic that an Indian, with colonized history, should somehow respect a non-westerner, with colonizer history, for some writting about his own Indian spiritual heritage.
I think a little humility would come in nicely, right about now. -
-
Re: Deliberate plagiarism my version of your spirituality?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 2:13 PMI wasn't speaking about Asian spirituality but rather Asian cultures more generally. However, Western notions about the "East" as a spiritual utopia have very little to do with the “on the ground” reality. Have you ever lived in Asia, learned to speak an Asian a language and/or spent time in day-to-day life with Asians? Such experiences can and most likely will wake one up from any notion that the East is more "spiritual" that the West.
Recently a number of excellent books have been written on how the West has projected its -fantasies- about spirituality on the East. _Prisoners of Shangri-La_ is and good example, illustrating the extent to which we have projected such notions on Tibet.
I greatly respect my teachers and their cultures, but no longer entertain the sort of fantasies I held 20 years ago when I began to study and practice Indo-Tibetan spirituality.
Sorry if seeing Asians as ordinary folks is offensive to you.
Ryan -
-
Re: Deliberate plagiarism my version of your spirituality?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 7:03 PMWell in regards to Asians being ordinary folks, i agree with you there.
In fact i had the worse criminal experience in Asia.. in fact at a spiritual institution.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Deliberate plagiarism?
Tue, April 22, 2008 - 4:16 PMHi, Ryan.
You're absolutely correct that books do go out of copyright. For example, a rare but important book entitled "Nature's Finer Forces" by Rama Prasad was published by the Theosophical Society over 100 years ago. It's the basis for most Western interpretations of the Tattwas. A strictly Western Occult group of the time, The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, thought it was so important that they incorporated ideas from that book the same year it was published.
There are a few publishers, such as Dover and others who make a lot of money republishing material that is out of copyright. Be careful, though! Even though the original is out of copyright, such republishers will often put a copyright on new introductions or typesetting. So unless expressly stated, it could be illegal to make a photocopy of what we think is in the public domain.
Everything changed with the passing of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
Namaste! -
-
Re: Deliberate plagiarism?
Wed, April 23, 2008 - 10:35 AMI wonder if Yogi madan gautan no longer feels comfortable contributing to this discussion...if so, I wonder why. -
-
moving on from here...
Wed, April 23, 2008 - 1:22 PMI emailed Yogi madan gautan and strongly suggested that we -both- stop talking about the specific incident that started this thread. And I do hope we can move passed it without any more discussion about that specifically.
However, I do hope that everyone (myself definitely included) will make him feel welcome to join in the various discussions. I certainly regret that I got a rather negative discussion going and deeply hope we can all leave that issue alone. This thread has branched in many directions and there is plenty to talk about that doesn't dwell on the earlier negativity (which I certainly acknowledge my role in). I hope Yogi madan g feels free to jump in.
Ryan -
-
Re: moving on from here...
Wed, April 23, 2008 - 1:36 PMYeah, I hope Yogi madan gautan hangs around specially since these are his first postings here (I think)...
it would leave a sore impression on him and all the other related tribes, but then again, he is a guru and this incident is nothing compared to real life conflicts.. that i am sure he is capable of shrugging off and seeing the best in all of us.
I'll let this be the last comment I make about that. -
-
Re: moving on from here...
Wed, April 23, 2008 - 3:34 PMI would encourage ALL people interested in Tantra to post here with questions, answers, and opinions. I would encourage responses and opinions to be open and remember that it is possible to disagree without being disagreeable, to state that you disagree with a person's comment without insulting the person. At the same time, there is nothing wrong with strongly supporting your position without being a bully or thinking that quantity and belligerence can replace quality and understanding.
Unfortunately, some people who are more interested in proselytizing, rather than sharing information and ideas, may get upset over any disagreement with their dogma. That doesn't mean we have to agree just to keep him/her happy.
Namaste!
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-